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Comment by didibus | Hacker News Reader

Hum... Now this makes me wonder if VR games could achieve a similar effect, such as Beat Saber. Since VR games could combine physical and mental activity into one.

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I do believe that VR absolutely has potential to shake this up. VR games have a physicality to them that is unmatched in any other sort of computer game.

I played ping pong on VR the other day, and it was amazing! I've played a bunch of ping pong in real life, and the physics in VR - along with the feedback in the controller - felt almost exactly life-like. It was truly a mind-blowing experience. It made me realize though that we're really at the tip of the iceberg in terms of what kinds of things we could do with VR. Up until now, the games we could play had the limit of only taking a few key presses and mouse motion as input. Suddenly we're now afforded the entire realm of physical motion. Not to hype it up too much, but the possibilities feel practically endless.

My guess is yes. The only issue right now is that sweating with a headset on doesn't feel great.

How about DanceDanceRevolution?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_Dance_Revolution

As a guy who's played way way too much DDR, it's a fantastic workout but it also gets very monotonous once you've figured out all the tricks and patterns. (Monotonous in terms of novelty, mind you - it's still fun!) The difference from _real_ dance is that you're dancing with a partner who is continually thinking of new moves.

I loved DDR but you’re right it definitely gets stale once you’ve memorized all of the patterns. But I don’t think it would be terribly difficult to alter DDR to “randomize” different sections of the dances. Maybe have three or four choreographed patterns possible for each section of the song and every time you play the song the dance is a randomized combination of those possible patterns.

We don't know where DDR lies on the scale of brain plasticity since it wasn't tested but good points you make. In my own opinion I feel DDR would be better than repetitive physical exercise but not as good as dance.

I am planning a 1 on 1 battle mode in VRWorkout [1] where players have to challenge each other with exercises. I am still in the design phase but it should be a way to get a competitve fitness challenge.

[1] https://vrworkout.at

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the effect comes from two minds working together. Working with a computer is...different.

I don't feel like the people in the study were pair dancing . Or improvising. They were learning dance in a classroom setting. " Each block comprised the teaching of choreographies of five different genres: line dance, jazz dance, rock ‘n’ roll, Latin-American dance and square dance "

Student/teacher is more or less the same thing.

I'd be inclined to think beatsabre is repetitive. Dance often involves moving your body in ways you haven't before or rarely do whilst beatsabre is pretty much different variations of the same move.

I believe activating a relatively new pathways is vastly different to activating a relatively old one in terms of brain plasticity; which is why I don't think there is much promise with this particular game.

Edit: when I say new and old pathway I really mean one that has been activated relatively little versus one that has been activated considerably more.

Well, to be fair, I’ve danced quite a bit. Unless you’re actively trying, it’s quite easy to fall into a groove where you’re just doing the same things over and over again to every song.

There’s probably more variation with dancing (in general) than some dance games but I do want to say, it’s possible to fall into a rut within dancing.

I can totally see your point. Which makes me wonder... Is dance superior to repetitive exercise for seasoned dancers, or are they actually the same thing?

There are many kinds of dance and styles. I guess the main ways to divide could be a) Partner dance b) Group dance, and a') Choreography b') Improvisation.

Even for seasoned dancers there is a lot to offer in all of those. In partner dance you have to watch and adapt to your partner all the time (no matter the skill level). In choreography you of course have to learn new programs and execute them well (displaying the desired artistic expression), in improvisation you have to come up with things on the fly.

Unless you get stuck in an old routine (same old choreography, not doing anything new, etc.), there is almost endless variation and learning of new tricks and nuances.

Thanks for the info. In that case I guess we can only infer that dance is better than repetitive exercise providing you are not banging out the same routines over and over. (In which case it is arguably repetitive exercise itself)

This aligns much better with my view that creating and accessing relatively new/rarely used pathways is the mechanism that keeps our brains agile.

You missed solo dance as c). Lots of hip hop is solo or semi solo, as are things like solo Charleston.

That's true, though they didn't simply have people dance. They had people learn different dance coreograhies and perform them.

I'm not sure it's the repetitiveness of the physical activity that is the issue, though could be. The way I'm interpreting it, I read it as you need to combine physical activity with sensory and cognitive tasks. Which dance provides. Beat Saber is repetitive in the physical movement, but constantly challenges you in the sensory and cognitive department.

I do think your point that the physical repetitiveness isn't the only factor is correct, however I believe it is the main driver.

Almost all physically repetitive exercises combine sensory and cognitive tasks to varying extents.

I would also argue that learning and implementing new movements is a much more diverse task cognitively than getting better at beatsabre.

I can see learning dance coreographies still being better than Beat Saber for sure. I just think a lot of normally suggested activities don't really involve sensory and cognitive aspects, like walking, jogging, cycling, swimming. So compared to those, I could see something like Beat Saber possibly having better success, which is where I feel it becomes interesting, because most people would naturally assume that picking up a game like Beat Saber wouldn't be any good and it be best you'd start swimming.

Beat Saber does have a very large amount of patterns, though. If you restrict yourself to the best designed maps, you're likely to find a unique feel to each. It does feel a lot like dancing, although, yes, it's a style of dancing that benefits from your body already knowing the basic positions.

I seem to recall some of the best custom mappers are specifically into dancing/choreography, but don't quote me on this; I don't know how to validate this information (maybe someone from the community will read this and be able to confirm).

I would like to point out we're not questioning whether repetitive activity enhances plasticity but if dancing is better.

Also when the study says dance they mean learning a new dance. If you were to do variations of the same dance over and over this study doesn't prove you would also get the benefits. I'd imagine if we did study it that case would show results very similar to the benefits from repetitive activity.

Beat Saber is great but I find that Audica and Synth Rider feel more like dancing than Beat Saber. In all those games you really need to play at the higher levels for them to be interesting.

I don't understand the comments that say the games are repetitive. In my experience most dance is repetitive. You practice certain moves and then that's it. Repeat those moves.

Not VR, but "Just Dance", a video game series teaches actual dance moves.

I like to imagine that when history looks back on the crumbling rubble of the 21st century, Beat Saber will be recognized as our crowning achievement.

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