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Comment by maeln | Hacker News Reader

It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo & Clio on the road.

I still see some Tesla, but usually it is a status symbol, people who just want an electric car usually go for the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe.

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This. Commute cars are Aygos and Ups, not two ton sedans. The (original) Tesla is one of the largest vehicles you'll see around here, only beaten by the hughest SUVs. And the commute market is where people buy electric, so that doesn't match at all. Anecdatally the only people I know with Teslas are rich enough they have it as one of their cars, as an extra to see what it is all about. Very few buy it instead of their commute box.

Here is NL.

In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by number of sale (electric or not)

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-...

1 Tesla Model 3 29,922

2 VW Polo 12,920

3 Ford Focus 10,478

4 VW Golf 9,263

Number 2 to 4 are small cars.

But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrained not much information about customer preferences from sales numbers.

This was specifically because starting in January this year tax breaks for electric cars were changed considerably for people leasing an electric car, specifically the more expensive ones.

Focus and Golf are both similar sizes, I wouldn't say the VW Golf is a small car. (Nor would I say that about the new Polo, it's actually quite big)

Back in the 1980s I considered the VW Golf a small car, but not anymore. Not sure if it's gotten larger since then, or my view of a small car has shrunk. But I don't think the Tesla 3 is that much larger than a Golf.

The new Polo is as large as the Golf used to be and the new Golf, especially the station is as large as the early model Passats. This is mostly an arms race, not so much on size as on crash safety, to maintain those precious stars car models creep up in their outside dimensions. Interiors are fairly static.

I must admit I live in Munich but the amount of commuting BMWs is simply astonishing. They simply can't ALL work for BMW ;)

That's one explanation that focuses on the differences between European an American markets.

But also, the Zoe is is in the affordable range for people looking for an electric car in non-massively-subsidized markets (Norway, Denmark), while VWs and Teslas are rather in the luxury range.

The amount of car (utility & status & luxury) I get for Tesla or VW money in e.g. Germany, makes most prospective customers buy either an ICE (looking for a family car), or BMW or Audi SUVs (looking for luxury & status) - unless they are idealists or in search of image polish (business cars bring larger tax benefits for electric cars).

Then there are simply not much electric cars on the market that aren't in the Zoe-class in the first place (although several alternatives are bound to hit the market soon), besides very expensive SUVs and Teslas. And the regular e-Golf pricing is simply not competitive, for what you get.

So most people buying a Zoe is put very simply a "cheapest price will attract the masses"-phenomenon - given what people are looking for (an electric car, maybe as replacement for the smaller second commuter car).

Yes absolutely ! That is why I was also talking about the Tesla has a "status symbol" :) .

Tesla are doubly expensive also because they usually fall into the sports cars category and insurance will make you pay way more.

Also, you probably need a safe place to park it. It is not true everywhere but I know that where I live, there is places where it would get vandalized pretty quickly.

I seriously can not consider putting 45k Euros myself to a car, when I can buy a mid size sedan or a hatchback for 20k Euros less (unused!).

One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families.

To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car for madam (e.g. Aygo or Twingo)

Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?

I'm really not sure. There's VAT which is around 20%ish, maybe that's lower in the US? And then registration + carbon taxes cost on top, but I didn't even include that in the price

It's also just that middle-class and higher incomes are much lower here than in the US + property is on average much more expensive. so people don't have as much disposable income to burn on cars

Many countries also have specific taxes based on engine size and emissions. For example, for 2020 Ford Explorer, a relatively popular SUV in the US (often a police car), you’d pay something like 12k EUR of extra pollution tax in France at purchase.

In general registration fees are very small compared to the price of a new car, though it probably varies per country. In the UK it's £55...

On the other hand, 20% VAT is painful and unheard of in the US afaik (<7% I believe).

The registration fees in France can go from a couple of hundred to tens of thousands of euros, to be paid every time the car changes owner... on top of the pollution tax, paid only the first time

The 'beauty' of France is that working this out obviously requires complicated parameters and formulas.

France: https://immatriculation.ants.gouv.fr/Vos-demarches/Cout-et-t...

UK: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/new-registrations-fe...

As Frenchman in the UK I like to take the piss out of my 'compatriotes'. ;)

There is no VAT in the U.S. Each state (except for a few) has a sales tax that may or may not apply to vehicles, but if it does the rate is usually 5-8% not 20%. And since it’s variable it’s tacked on at the point of sale not embedded into the “retail price” of the car.

It's usually not so much the expense of the car as the cost of operating them. Consider how expensive it is to own a car in NYC, well it's the same in all European cities, even those of much smaller size.

NYC parking prices, California gas prices (and possibly California registration costs depending on country), European tax rates, and "safety" inspection programs (that mostly just increase the cost of operating old, cheap cars), combine to provide a hefty financial incentive for people in Western Europe to take the bus/train.

> California gas prices

Most European drivers would be thrilled with California gas prices: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/gas-prices/

Hopefully they are too socially responsible to be “thrilled” with that.

American gas prices and vehicle fees are scandalously low, too low to pay for upkeep of car infrastructure, let alone to pay for the externalities of driving and of burning fossil fuels.

Even more scandalously low are public transit prices, which are too low to even cover half the cost of operating it, much less to cover the infrastructure upkeep.

Europe wasn't built around cars, car infrastructure or car manufacturing. Consequently they are also not subsidized as much, this is reflected in the price of fuel and the sticker price of the vehicles themselves.

There are other side effects: better public transport (though there is great variation and some of the old advantages are being rolled back), better bike infrastructure (again, not everywhere) and more local shopping rather than just malls.

A new Toyota Corolla in the Netherlands costs around €25k, of which around 11k are taxes (5k sales tax plus 6k vehicle tax). Gas price at the pump are €1.67/L (= €6.32/gallon), of which almost half are (sales+excise) taxes.

Our vaunted public services don't come cheap.

Most countries don't have auto industry so the incentive to stimulate car demand is missing for governments.

The price you see in the US is always before taxes and registration fees. In CA those are easily 10% on top

Public transport is very good, so you usually do not need a car within the city, a small car is enough for most of the tasks.

It's not surprise to me it's small car, but that is Renault. I would expect Nissan, Hyundai or Toyota taking the top spots, though by my anecdotal experience I see most often BMW i3.

Gas is expensive in the EU and cheap in the US, that’s why.

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