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Comment by danboarder | Hacker News Reader

This is sad, we in the US are losing the little high ground we had and no longer lead by example to bring the world closer together by encouraging free markets and free people. I'm against this protectionist nationalism, it only leads to future conflict.

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> no longer lead by example to bring the world closer together by encouraging free markets and free people.

It does not work very well if you are the only nice guy within a group of a--holes. You just end up being beaten up. Free Markets work well if pretty much everyone adopts the same rules of commerce, but China is way beyond that point.

One of my favorite Marcus Aurelius quote is "Leave the harm done by other where it started."

Excluding self defense, I wonder if this can be applied to nations too.

Alan Kay has noted that vendettas are a human universal [1]: they arises naturally in any human society everywhere on the globe and in history. Rule of law is not a human universal, it requires conscious effort and continuous maintenance. I'm increasingly afraid that the relatively long period of peace in the West have lulled this generation to forget that war, not peace is the natural state of the world.

[1] http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2008/08/what-alan-kay-said-abo...

> It does not work very well if you are the only nice guy within a group of a--holes

You are saying Europe is behaving like China?

US is merely reciprocating the policies of CCP: let them allow US companies to compete fairly in China as well.

And this is where credibility matters. Do other countries believe that this is true, or do they believe that Trump is doing this because TikTok is full of teens & comedians that have made him look foolish?

Yes, by mirroring China’s authoritarianism and restricting the freedom of Americans. I’m living overseas and now my government is telling me I can’t use WeChat? Telling me who I can and cannot trade with, etc.

Restrictions on trade with China are attacks on our freedom.

It is absolutely within the purview of a Sovereign Nation to decide, within the confines of relevant statutes, what companies are allowed to operate within its borders. Trade restrictions are absolutely normal, and are well inline with established practices. What are economic sanctions, after all, but a restriction on the freedom to conduct commerce?

What is the trade reason why these apps are being banned?

How do you feel about restrictions on trade with North Korea, Syria, or Iran?

The same, especially with regards to communications and consumer goods. We’re talking about a chat and payments app...

It’s not an actual national security issue like selling China nukes or something.

Private chats can contain sensitive material that could be used to extort/blackmail government officials and/or business leaders, and in-app payments can be used for tax evasion, money laundering and bypassing sanctions. That in combination with the fact that TenCent or any large Chinese corporation is essentially an extension of the government means that WeChat can very plausibly become a threat to national security if it gains widespread adoption.

While I agree with your stance that this is infringing on personal freedoms of American citizens, and I too wish our leaders wouldn't always so eagerly infringe on personal freedoms in the name of national security, the national security claim itself does have merit.

The military and government officials can avoid use of the apps, without banning them for Americans. As they have before WeChat, and before the Internet.

I think the notion that WeChat is a threat to national security is honestly ridiculous. National security is a legal excuse to do things Trump otherwise wouldn’t be able to do in his pursuit of a trade war.

There's no way to predict in advance who's going to become a government official. When they do, and if they used WeChat before then, the damage is done. Material on those close to the officials can also be used against them in similar manner.

Again, not condoning the restriction of personal freedoms, but the national security angle is not totally without merit.

Yes, this. There are very few degrees of separation in social networks and people leak personal and private information to social networks all the time. It can and will be used against you. It can also be used as a propaganda outlet. Social media has already shown its impressive abilities to manipulate people's emotions and behaviors, in mass numbers.

You are refusing to look at the bigger picture. China is at a silent war with western countries -it has been for decades. Tech is the backbone of China. We have to hit them where it hurts in order to contain them, otherwise you lose much more than "your ability to trade". China just recently passed a law criminializing anybody outside China - of any nationality - criticizing China or its regime.

While people like you whine about your chat app, it can be a matter of life and death if China is allowed to continue.

https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they-watch/

My understanding is almost all countries have laws that apply to their citizens abroad. If you don't like it, you're welcome to renounce your American citizenship (at a price)

Not really. There are other developing economies with serious tech sectors like India which operate according to the rules based open market system we have in place.

If the US doesn't take action against Chinese protectionism, why should other countries abide by the rules and give US access to their markets? The US provides China it's market even though China closes it down for everyone.

I think US being soft on China sets a bad precedent.

> I'm against this protectionist nationalism, it only leads to future conflict.

And unfortunately this is what the top comment preaches and I am very disappointed to see that the more-educated-than-the-average-person readers of HN fall into the trade war / retaliation fallacy.

Trade always benefits both parties. Otherwise they would not start trading in the first place.

I don’t think the US has ever lead by example. Europe has though.

The US has been a champion of global free trade for more than a century.

Of course, the US wants to be top dog in this free trade Utopia, and the means employed to get to those free-trade ends have frequently been terrible.

But just as frequently the means have been a reasonable (and moral / amoral) push to encourage globalization, which has demonstrably helped reduce poverty and other negative stats the world over.

You need to study up on game theory. Being the only nice guy surrounded by jerks who take advantage of you benefits them and wipes you out.

More details about it in a form of a game: https://ncase.me/trust/

I'd rather that US lose the moral high ground than lose its bread and butter.

The only thing that matters is long-term consequences. This could be war, but literally nobody wants that, least of all China. It also could be beating China down on its knees, and forcing it to free its people and its markets. That would be a remarkable outcome (not sure Trump can get there, though - I expected something in this direction in his dealings with North Korea, but he dropped the ball... I don't know, maybe he just got bored?)

it's not only about protectionism, WeChat is also used for tax evasion through wechat payments, let alone security risks with Chinese gov having access to all photos, documents and videos of residents of US who have this spyware on their phone

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