Comment by wegs | Hacker News Reader

Comment by wegs | Hacker News Reader

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> and especially Fox News.

Watching Fox News doesn't mean you have to agree with it. Citing someone as saying something doesn't mean you need to agree with them either -- a citation means that you're pointing to what someone is saying. I read (and cite) everything from moderate sources to foreign state propaganda newspapers, to radical extremists from all sides (not just US red-blue).

Sun Tzu said: “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Fox News is the top-rated news show in America. It has about the same ratings as CNN and MSNBC combined. If you're not watching Fox News, you can't understand where half of America is coming from. If that's the basis you're starting from, good luck working productively towards change.

The reality is half of America is seeing police violence. Half of America is seeing protester violence. That's the reality of our media. The things they show are real, but cherry-picked. It's actual video footage half of America is seeing. You can't just ignore that, and claim to understand what's going on.

You can't read about it either. Primary sources. Articles about what other people are saying are about half-fabrications at this point (on all sides).

Methinks that if you think that the best use of your time in "understanding what is going on" and fighting the battle against "inflammatory false content" is to watch it, cite it in conversation, and talk to people who watch it- it's your life and choice, but, forgive me: citing it is a mistake, because it is a false reflection of reality (on a personal level, an important distinction from the aggregate medium is the message level), and, trying to combat it by talking to people is like talking to an addict. Fox and other content providers are there because people want it. There is demand and dependence. You can get a reasonable conversation from one part of someone's brain that is disconnected from actual behavior, because the other is hungering for the hit.

Best wishes to you.

Sounds like you've got it all figured out. Read what you've written again. You've dehumanized half of America, and, well, subhumans ain't worth talkin' to. It'd be nice if someone saved them from themselves, but they can't be saved anyways, and besides, they wouldn't be worth saving if you tried.

Why, might a reasonable person ask?

Well, obviously, because they've dehumanized another part of America.

To quote you back: "Was that deliberately meta or just completely un-self-aware?"

No. Be careful with conclusions of dehumanization. That is the Fox narrative. It is the most insidious of the falsehoods.

More precisely, a choice to consume deliberately false and deadly toxicity to engage in communication to reach past "hate" in the interest of "saving"....is just that, a choice. It's maybe hopeful and optimistic but also sanctimonious, patronizing, sisyphean, and in some cases blind. If a humane choice, it's absolutely not the only humane choice. Fox is not the first deadly religion, and it won't be the last. There are many toxic forces and powers, and the deepest tragedy is that so many of them are so much greater than that of a single individual. There is needless pain and suffering and loss not only among the afflicted but the unafflicted as well, as the defensive walls are necessarily porous.

Best wishes in your task. Be careful about both sidesing, it is the devil's best trick, and aware of limits to empathy. Appreciate the engagement. I will see a response but will not be responding again. Take care.

I am careful with conclusions about dehumanization. Be careful with what you write about whole groups of people.

The culture we're born into is NOT a choice. Whether you're in a red-state culture, a blue-state culture, a Chinese culture, a Middle Eastern Muslim culture, or a Peruvian culture is up to your parents. Religion, political ideology, beliefs about male-female relations, beliefs about parent-child relations, and a whole slew of things follow.

Most people from all major demographic groups are good people. You may disagree with them. But most people are basically good. Every major group has a psychopathic minority. That's common to ALL of humanity, at least as far as I've seen. In most cases, members of the in-group will say that someone is not a "real Christian/Muslim/feminist/etc." about those psychopathic elements. There are also toxic elements to any culture, and being on the inside, it's very hard to see them. It takes work and engagement with other cultures. It's easiest to see this historically. For example, look at how we treated [insert minority group] [insert number of decades ago].

Yes, there are toxic beliefs in red state cultures. Yes, there are toxic beliefs in blue state cultures. They're no worse or better than, for example, mainstream views in China on Tibet or Taiwan. As much as it might seem that way, neither side is Nazi Germany.

There is an old joke where a man is about to commit suicide, and another man tries to save him. They have a conversation, where they seem to be building empathy through a series of questions, coming to the conclusion that their both Christians, Protestants, Presbyterians, and so on. At the end, one asks the other if they're from the reformation in 1938 or the reformation of 1948. It ends with one being pushed off of the bridge with a scream of "Die heretic!" I recall it being funny when I was a little kid, but I can't find it with Google, and can't tell with a good punchline.

But that's sort of what's happening here. Most American liberals are pretty well able to engage with people from all around the world, despite the well-known toxic elements of those cultures. See the defense of Muslims post-9/11 (whom I mention because they share so much similarity to many red state cultures along the lines liberals care about). Somehow, that can't happen close to home. Empathy goes away. Hate comes. We can read and cite Chinese government media objectively when trying to understand that culture, but we're bad people if we do the same with US right-wing media.

Take care.

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