Comment by cglee | Hacker News Reader

Comment by cglee | Hacker News Reader

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I'm not sure anything can "offset" those things, but you should consider a long duration stay as a first step towards understanding some of the issues around China.

China faces distinctly different problems than the US on so many fronts, that it's very difficult for Americans and Westerners to appreciate even the problems, let alone propose solutions.

That's not to say you can't say what's right or wrong, but wholesale condemnation doesn't even allow one to take the first step.

Update: let me be more specific, since I know the hacker in all of us wants to say "give me all the variables, and I can give the optimal solution". A lot of China's issues stem from thousands of years of culture. Thousands. You can't really get a feel of the core issues without living and breathing China for a few years. And living as an exchange student for a semester in WuDaoKuo while partying in Sanlitun really doesn't count. There are libraries of books on this subject, so I can't hope to do it justice here. In summary: it's much more complicated than just "the government" or "human rights" - it's not ever just one variable in isolation being considered.

ps: think of it this way: what would you say to someone who says "I dislike the US government for its treatment of Native Americans/Alaskans/Hawaiians". I'd think you'd agree, but that's not really an issue that exists in a vacuum. There's historical, cultural, temporal, etc context...and in China (just by being around for thousands of years), all of those contexts are far more complex.

I'd say, "At least those problems are mostly in the past now", whereas you cannot say the same thing about China.

Infact, I must admit, China isn't a country I would even feel comfortable about visiting. I am a very vocal proponent of democracies and a critic of how China treats not only its citizens, but journalists both native and foreign and how it uses its economic might to get away with things that other country get sanctioned for.

Tiananmen Square was less than 20 years ago and not that much has changed, I feel.

For your first sentence, look up Hawaiian Sovereignty or slavery retribution or head out to any Native American reservation. Or ask yourself why it is that there are more black youths in jail than in college (hint: slavery & discrimination). But I took the bait, these things aren't what I want to discuss because however you define "righteous" (I guess in your world, it's got something to do with x amount of elapsed time), we can banter back and forth with stats and be here all night.

Middle paragraph - I agree with your criticisms. But if you're interested in more than just criticizing from the sidelines, you need to go to China and try to get a feel for the place. At some point, you need to try to fully understand what it is that you're criticizing.

Tiananmen Square - lots has changed since that time. Again, you need to go see to believe.

Ask the Tiananmen Mothers how much China has changed. Ask the Uighurs or Tibetans. Ask some of the current crop of Chinese dissidents - the ones currently being harrassed, kept under house arrest, or those who've been secretly arrested, beaten, and tortured. Ask factory workers who are finding that the new labor law gives them little/no real protection from their employers. Ask nail house residents who are being forced out of their homes with little or no compensation to make way for developers with close ties to local officials. You won't read about any of these people much in the local press - either the government mouthpieces or the censored commercial media - and any significant interaction with them will end up with you being branded an "enemy of China" and hounded out of the country.

I have been living and running a business here, in China, for the past several years and I see plenty.

You're right, if I ask the most oppressed people in a society, they will tell me everything wrong with the government. I'm sure that's no different anywhere else.

My question is: what do you do about these problems? How do you curb local political corruption? How do you maintain governance of a mostly uneducated mass, while transitioning to capitalism? How do you keep the country developing while minimizing pollution? etc etc etc...throwing stones is the easy part. Building is the hard part.

My entire point is: you won't be able to come up with good, sound solutions to any of these problems without a deep understanding of China, and even then, I doubt there are any really great solutions without side effects.

Edit: but to reply, a lot has changed since Tiananmen. I don't have to ask the Mothers of those killed, I can see it myself. Maybe it hasn't changed as much as you like, but it has changed a lot.

Yeah - find some Australians, British citizens, Canadians, etc. who are serving lengthy jail terms or are currently under house arrest for speaking out about environmental disasters, labor disputes, and the like. Especially reach out to the ones who've been beaten and tortured for voicing their views and attempting to organize.

The problem of course is that none of that stuff happens to peaceful protesters and activists. It does happen in China.

Any effort to cast the Chinese government and its policies as somehow morally equivalent to the governments of liberal Western democracies is going to fall flat.

I made no such argument.

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