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Comment by HenryBemis | Hacker News Reader

The judge is right in many many things.. but this one caught my eye

> Microsoft has had a walled garden.

No it doesn't. I have never purchased anything from Microsoft. 90% of the software I have purchased is straight to the vendors (e.g. InternetDownloadManager, ACDSee, etc.). The remaining 10%, even when it comes to Microsoft products (OS, Office), I purchased them back-in-the-day from stores, and I got the CDs/DVDs. Same with computer games. AoE, Diablo I-II-III and expansions, and many more.

I know that M$ tried to pull everyone through their (imho) crappy Store, but still, I can get everything I want/need outside their marketplace and straight from the Devs, bypassing their store. Unless the Judge strictly means the mobile app store, in which case, I exited WM6 a 10+ years ago and have no knowledge of this.

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XBox is the walled garden, not Windows.

Not to mention, the Epic store itself is a walled garden!

The epic store is not a walled garden. If you use Windows you have many choices of App Store, including just downloading from your web browser, and hell if you don't like what's on Windows you can install Linux. If you buy an iPhone you are forced to use the App Store and pay Apple 30% of every digital product you buy on it. It's intensely consumer hostile.

I'm a consumer, I find it to be liberating.

But yea the Epic Store is a walled garden. They don't let me publish whatever I want.

The actual Epic store is a walled garden. You’re intermingling two separate things. Epic won’t let you out a game in their store without taking a cut.

By that logic is your local supermarket a walled garden? They won't let you sell stuff without taking a cut.

...

Not sure what point you’re making here.

I guess so? They invested and developed their customer base, they deserve a cut of what my products I want them to sell like they take from every product they sell?

This is how the supply chain has worked since the beginning of time.

> is your local supermarket a walled garden?

Yes? Of course? That’s the whole point of a supermarket. To curate and distribute in exchange for a cut.

You don't know what a walled garden is. A walled garden, or closed platform, is a platform that prevents you from going outside the ecosystem, or platform, in order to use it's features.

To continue the supermarket comparison, it would be like a system where you buy pots and pans and a stove and what not from Whole Foods, but you can only use food you purchased from Whole Foods, and anyone wanting to sell you food would have to sell it through Whole Foods.

Open to closed is on a continuum [1]. What we include or don't include in our analysis is a matter of preference. As such, there is no one true definition of a walled garden.

For example, Apple doesn't dictate which electricity provider I use to power its devices. Does that mean it's an open platform? Of course not.

The comparison of the App Store to a grocery store is apt. They both leverage their access to demand to control (and extract profits from) the supply side.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_platform

Whole Foods has store brands. You can't buy Whole Foods' store brand items at any other store. That aspect of exclusivity is harmful to consumers, since if they want to get the store brand items from different stores they have to pay money (fuel/bus/etc) to go to each store.

I guess the main difference between what apple and a supermarket is that with apple you buy some hardware and are then forced to only get software from one store.

It would be like buying a house somewhere and are then forced to only shop at one specific supermarket as long as you live there. No more buying your stuff anywhere else.

Or like going to a concert venue and not bringing outside alcohol. Or going on a plane and having to buy airline food. Or going to a movie theaters and not being able to order popcorn from elsewhere. Or having your wedding in a church and not getting to bring your favorite rabbi in to do the service.

All business is bundling and unbundling.

I can go into my local grocery store, and if I don't like something about the Oreo's I can go across the street to a different grocery store and get my Oreo's there. Epic Games only lets me download Fortnite on my PC or Mac through the Epic Games Store, so no they are not the same as buying groceries.

That applies for brands that are sold across multiple stores, but what about store brands? I can't get kirkland signature products outside of costco.

If your local supermarket A-Mart sold A-Cars that refused to drive into other supermarkets parking lots then yeah. You could argue that you don't like other supermarkets practices and want to ensure you or your spouse or your parents don't accidentally drive there so you buy A-Cars for all of them. And it isn't a monopoly, these cars have only about 50% market share, if you want to go to another grocery store why not buy their cars?

Anyway, the point is that coupling things unnecessarily is dumb. There is no need to enforce coupling of hardware and software like Apple does, the only reason is to ensure that Apples strong points also lets them sell their weak points.

>If your local supermarket A-Mart sold A-Cars that refused to drive into other supermarkets parking lots then yeah.

But that's not what epic's doing? You can install EGS and steam side by side. Since there's virtually no lock-in, it's closer to "two supermarkets you can drive to" than "whatever app store you have preloaded on your phone".

I agree, this was to show the difference between Apple and Epic.

Most games on Epic Store are available on other stores too. How walled is this? And how much do they get for InApp-Income of the apps? Do they enforce it like Apple and Google?

Sometime (or often?) they have a time-exclusive offer for new games, but it seems they pay good money for this, so it's a simple business-descision for the gamedevs.

And if you use xbox you can buy your games from any videogame store in your town. Maybe the new digital editions will be but current ones aren't.

Even if you bought it in the store they already paid the Xbox tax.

It’s not consumer hostile, quite contrary actually. Maybe not pro-consumer or developers who do not want to pay hostile. Also, no one is forced to buy an iPhone. In fact, Android holds a significantly larger market share where you can go do everything you complain Apple doesn’t let you do. I buy the iPhone because I like knowing it will just work.

> Android holds a significantly larger market share where you can go do everything you complain Apple doesn’t let you do.

Some stats show iOS has larger market share then Android on US.

A citation would be really nice here; I’ve not seen a chart that’s put Android at less than 70% of the market share (usually it’s over 80%).

Sorry what I can do is Google it for you but I have no idea if the first Google results are correct

https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-sh... Apple leads in US smartphones with aprox 40% (not OS but devices)

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta... this one shows iOS at 60%

https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/mobile/unite... Safari has more then 50% share in mobile browsers.

Whether you’ve used it or not, there is a Windows store. There was also a Windows phone store, and there is currently an Xbox store. The second two examples were and are walled gardens.

then the judge should have been more precise because this is a night and day difference. If Windows, the operating system itself, would function as a walled garden, that is to say every developer for windows would have to shell over 30% of their revenue, we'd have started a revolution two decades ago.

Apple's app store isn't comparable to the XBox store (revenue on the apple store was 50 billion last year, compared to three on the xbox), it's comparable in reach to the Windows ecosystem overall.

Due to the preceding Nintendo and Sony I had assumed she was talking about XBox there.

You could install whatever you wanted on wm6

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