FreeYourMusic lets users migrate their playlists off Spotify | Hacker News Reader

FreeYourMusic lets users migrate their playlists off Spotify

freeyourmusic.com

377 pointsbartoszhernas262 comments

I think something like this still works with a client id, secret, and a playlist:

  TOKEN=$(curl --basic --user $ID:$SECRET -X POST -d grant_type=client_credentials https://accounts.spotify.com/api/token | jq -r .access_token)
  curl -H "Authorization: Bearer $TOKEN" https://api.spotify.com/v1/playlists/$PLAYLIST/tracks | tee playlist-$PLAYLIST.json | jq -rc '.items[].track | "\(.artists[0].name) -- \(.name)"' | sort

It works, but the tracks api is limited to 100 max results, so you have to call it multiple times with offset for larger playlists [1].

[1] https://developer.spotify.com/documentation/web-api/referenc...

Most APIs have page size limits.

Yep, I was just noting it for anyone else that tried it and was curious.

Yes, that's pagination :)

It should be possible to script that out too.

Yep, it is, I was just noting it in case someone was wondering why it was being wonky after trying it out.

I already did just to test it out, the results include a 'next' link that you can use :)

At least the TOKEN command was perfect for me, thank you! Instead of passing ID and SECRET, I wrote the values from the Spotify Developer Dashboard to a file like so: $ touch .spotify_credentials && chmod 600 .spotify_credentials then edited .spotify_credentials with client_id:client_secret, then $ curl --basic --user "$(cat .spotify_credentials)" -X POST -d grant_type=client_credentials https://accounts.spotify.com/api/token which was successful

Check out https://github.com/caseychu/spotify-backup

I'm a user / minor contributor. It could use some polishing, but it gets the job done (JSON or TSV output). I wonder if it could sidestep Spotify restrictions by not providing an explicit interface for uploading playlists to competing services -- just providing the download portion?

This, on top of songs disappearing from my playlists, rendered unavailable.

I organize everything in foobar now, both local music and streaming playlists with the help of extensions. You can add Youtube sources to your playlists. Even if the links break, you can automatically fix them, keep the name and structure. Have not tried the app versions.

Oh man, how do I wish a foobar that runs natively on Linux :(

It pains me to say it, but music apps on Linux are abysmal. The last one that wasn't completely crap was Amazon 1.4.

Clementine [1] is pretty cool. It does everything I need:

- cross-fading between songs

- a real queue that is separate from the playlist so you can program what plays next and in which order easily (CTRL+D to add / remove, and a advanced window can show the queue)

- a remote control with an Android app

- stop after this song

- a giant search / filter bar. It does not has to have the focus to start searching, just type when Clementine is the active window

- MPRIS integration (obviously)

- several playlists open at the same time

- the mood bar

It also has:

- tag editing

- integration with many online services

- a library handling that does not get in the way but full-featured anyway

- support for removable media

It's awesome. It could use some pretty some improvement for its look, but it is pretty decent and does the job.

It's a fork and a continuation of Amarok 1.4.

[1] https://clementine-player.org/

+1 When I ran linux everywhere, Clementine was my goto player. This was over 5 years ago, I'm sure its only gotten better.

According to their website, the most recent release is from 2016.

Distributions actually ship more recent versions from the git repository. I'm currently running a release tagged as version 1.4 rc2 (openSUSE Tumbleweed).

The project is still alive, it somehow has an issue releasing a version but the player is stable.

I really like Strawberry [1], a fork of Clementine. "It is a fork of Clementine released in 2018 aimed at music collectors and audiophiles."

[1] https://github.com/strawberrymusicplayer/strawberry

There are a million music apps for linux. What exactly are you looking for?

That’s the problem: a million apps, but none of them are decent

Yeah, none of them even have the feature set of iTunes from 10 years ago.

Audacious is still top notch imo.

MPD on linux + Android MPD client as the the GUI works well for me.

I use mpv. It's primarily meant as a video player but it works well for music too and even as an image viewer (alternative to 'feh') There is a pretty active community of people writing scripts for mpv (Lua or JS) and it's generally really nice for users with a hacker ethos. I consider it the Emacs of multimedia.

(I wouldn't recommend it for casual users, I tell family members to use VLC.)

deadbeef (https://github.com/DeaDBeeF-Player/deadbeef) tries to be a foobar2k clone of sorts, and while it's nowhere close (foobar2k is just really damn good), it's alright for what it is: a basic GUI playlist manager that plays on-disk music.

The bare-bones experience is kind of nice, to be honest, as my listening habits don't really need much functionality beyond "load a folder of music, respond to media key inputs, and scrobble to last.fm".

*Amarok

Yes. Failing that, it's possible with wine - https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=54933.0

Have you tried DeaDBeeF? It's a very minimalistic player with a ton of features (ReplayGain support, gapless playback, etc.).

I was actually really unimpressed with FooBar being a linux user coming from Amarok 1.4 and then Clementine, is there something that's supposed to be good about it? Seemed really ugly and required plugins to get basic features.

I still hear the echoes of the songs I listened to on Grooveshark that disappeared overnight.

Oi, same. Cliché or not, Obi-wan said it best:

> ...as if millions of voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced

I've since created a playlist dedicated to those lost songs, long forgotten fossils, as I randomly re-find or re-remember them. Sadly, there's fewer than 20 songs in there even after all this time.

Say, one thing that I really appreciate from Spotify is the weekly playlist. I love discovering music, and it usually has a few songs I end up liking. Does foobar have a module that does recommendations? Or is there a community aggregation-of-playlists out there I could roll my own?

I still remember being impressed by the preference-clustering paper in '95 (https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.10...) by an MIT grad for what became Firefly (later purchased by Microsoft solely for their sign-in tech called Passport https://web.archive.org/web/19970116111618/http://www.firefl... , still a bit annoyed they shut it down and let music recommendation languish for another decade).

Do you need to have a subscription to get the weekly playlists?

I wonder if you could you "scrobble" your local non-spotify song plays into a free spotify account and then scrape the generated playlists. You'd need a way to use whatever song metadata you have locally to find spotify's copy (if any), a way to drive plays (if you have to use the official client, have it dump to a null audio sink), and a way to scrape playlists.

Nothing like that I'm afraid. Though I've added m3u links to radio stations and use that for some discovery, alongside bandcamp, reddit, youtube. Personally I find independent radio is underrated, they often save their streams in archives online. Wefunkradio is a good example.

EDIT: incidentally there was a recent Spotify integration component: https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_spotify , not sure if that still works. It also looks like there was an older one for creating playlists using last.fm.

Just give me the fucking mp3 or flac files, subscriptions should be advertised as radio, not a music "library". I've been bitching about the industry burning down my shelves for years now... it's unfathomable how much people rely on these stupid streaming services.

That said, I'd still gladly pay for the music discovery, I just have started to feel cheated out of my money over the years doing so. Should I really be paying $10/month to listen to the same songs I listen to every other month. I don't go on a music collection binge all that often you know.

And then poof, it's gone.

On the plus side, pirating music has never been easier. Just rip the audio tracks from youtube with youtube-dl. Coverage is pretty good and so is the audio quality (I am not an audiophile.) No need to sleaze a private tracker invite off IRC or anything like that.

last.fm is still going strong. Send your plays there from pretty much any service/app and you'll start getting recommendations.

Huge fan of last.fm. I haven’t been using their discovery features (though I may start now that you’ve mentioned it), but I absolutely love all the listening statistics they offer. I find it super interesting to see how my listening habits and music taste evolve over time , as well as seeing which tracks I come back to most.

Good news! Bandcamp is exactly that (giving you your choice of FLAC or MP3 or whatever, without DRM, and available for download again so long as Bandcamp continues to exist) and is good for artists, since it's an actual album sale, so none of the nonsense associated with streaming payouts.

It's good for discovery also, since while Bandcamp Daily is a marketing tool, it's still written by music nerds who do a good job curating music from local scenes and odd genres. Indie labels also often run storefronts on Bandcamp, and are a decent way of finding the same, as most release music from their local area or with a similar sound. It's different from algorithmic discovery, and requires a bit more effort, but IMO it's worth it to explore on your own, and a fun way to learn something more about an album or track than streaming services' "Chill Hip Hop Beats To Study/Relax To"-style personality-void mood-based curation.

Bandcamp isn't perfect, to be sure. It's not as good for older music (though there are niche labels like https://habibifunkrecords.bandcamp.com/ that dig up old recordings and re-release them digitally) or big-name artists on major labels, but there's so much music available nowadays that you usually won't be at a loss for something to listen to, you just won't always be able to find a specific track as easily as on Spotify. Their mobile app also isn't great, and really needs to add a way to download tracks for offline listening, but hey, no music service is perfect, and I'm fine using a mix of both it and Spotify where one offers a better experience than the other.

Bandcamp is such a great service. Pretty much all artists and labels that I care about have a presence there and I really like that I can archive FLAC files of everything I buy. Too bad there’s not a similar drm-free service for movies! (Please chime in if you know of one)

Amen. For all the convenience of streaming, it really seems like we have gone steps backwards.

Streaming a song multiple times seems wasteful compared to just downloading it once.

Not to mention that on youtube (etc.) you can get stuck with obnoxious advertisements before and after the song.

If it helps, in the settings you can enable an option to display songs even when they are unavailable. It's not perfect but I find it much easier to compromise on that as opposed to Youtube's practice of slowly rotting away playlists until all that's left is a mix of [Deleted Video] and [Private Video]

> on top of songs disappearing from my playlists

It might have been the case that the song didn't disappear, but is instead hidden because it's unavailable.

At the bottom of the preferences window there's a section called "display options." In there enable "show unavailable songs in playlists."

If you just want a csv of all your playlists right now, instead of potentially "30 days". This repo works well.

https://github.com/pavel-aicradle/exportify

See also https://github.com/caseychu/spotify-backup. Looks like Exportify is more polish, though.

Spotify is so much better than apple music, and this is probably minimal compared to what apple music does to convert/retain users from Spotify.

Think of all the barriers apple music has created (apple watch app for a long time was the only one that supported offline, apple music is preinstalled, when you hit play and no apps are currently playing it will go to apple music, probably much more).

My main thought though is that Spotify is much better anyway, why give people the ability to export their curated playlists and use somewhere else. They’ve built that service that helped you discover all those songs — if you created all those playlists from scratch with no help from Spotify’s algorithm (discover/recommendations) good for you but I doubt that’s most people.

The fact that it may have better features or that other services also have lock-in does not in any way excuse this behavior from Spotify. It's anti-user and they should stop.

No matter how good a service is, it does not give them the right to hold you hostage.

Personally, I want to have a text backup of all my playlists.

If my Spotify disappeared into the aether tomorrow, it would be a lot of pain. Not completely awful -- I follow a lot of my favorite bands on Youtube, and I buy physical releases occasionally too, but my connection to every artist that I can't name off the top of my head will have been lost.

I've been a spotify customer for years and I plan to continue that, but I also am not planning on letting my playlists go silently into the night.

Idk. I prefer AM's recommendations, integration with ATV4K, HomePods, lyrics, music videos, separation of music and podcasts, and audio fidelity.

This seems less like an article and more like an advertisement.

No surprise there. It is very common for startups or small to mid-sized companies to start a blog as a companion for their product, with articles of the schema "Very broad description of some common problem/need, followed by very specific guides - often times even step-by-step - on how to use their product to deal with said problem/need."

It widens the spectrum of keywords that they can be found with a lot and thereby increases traffic to their main page and product.

I've run into these so often. I'll be searching for a solution to a problem and I notice a "tutorial" but it on the site of a product that's name implies it is related to "fixing" the problem. And yep, as soon as I start reading the tutorial I can see they are going to say to use their product and explain how to use it. It gets rather annoying seeing these when I know there are free solutions.

I'm one of those speak with my wallet kind of people. So when I seen news of this yesterday I wrote into their support saying I was not pleased with it.

Their response was some random canned response about how you can still export your data. I'm not a fan of lock in, and I'm even less thrilled about not actually responding to my actual questions and instead giving me some canned BS.

I responded back telling them thanks for not even reading my question and responding with a canned response, then asked for instructions on how to delete my account. I haven't heard back. For what it's worth I wasn't rude in any of this, I was straight and to the point, but I was not rude. Now they seem to be simply ignoring me.

I'm definitely not spending my money with this service any more. I used to feel a tiny bit sad for them competing with Apple and their whole complaint against Apple and payment stuff. But after seeing this shitty set of responses from them I just no longer care, it feels like they've brought at least some of this on themselves.

As a sidenote, I'm sort of fed up with customer support in general these days. Snippeted answers are great when they make sense. I.e. a user is asking a simple question, you can take the approach of some personalization sprinkled with snippets to make your life easier and your messaging more consistent. But when you have an unhappy, or upset customer, the last thing you should do is throw in some canned response that doesn't even address their concerns.

It's a little surprising to me that you'd expect better customer support from a service with >248 million[1] monthly active users.

Having worked for/with departments like this, they have to heavily optimise for their response rate, and use as many macros to respond as possible, which's probably your case as I'd assume that many customers contacted them with the same question.

By all means, always speak with your wallet, but if you genuinely expect huge corporations to answer each request with a custom response, you will probably be disappointed often.

[1] https://qz.com/1736762/spotify-grows-monthly-active-users-an...

Most of the time I initiate contact with Amazon customer service, I seem to get a custom response. When pushy, I have gotten excellent custom responses.

I expect Amazon does far more revenue/customer, though.

Same for me. I was really surprised when I used their chat like four weeks ago and actually talked to a human being. Didn't expect that from Amazon.

Not just more revenue per customer, but also the more issues they solve for you the more you'll be able to pay. If Spotify fixes your problem you won't go "now I'll use you more and pay 2x". For Amazon that's a real opportunity.

Your mileage may vary - I've got plenty of Amazon support staff blatantly telling me I've got no consumer rights (both national and EU) "because Amazon rules", no matter how high you try to escalate it.

If you feel that way, consider sending an email to jeff@amazon.com .

My local Amazon website customer service was also pretty good every time I had a need for it. On the other hand, the English customer support of Amazon.jp is just straight up terrible. Wanted to send back a damaged product which I had bought as new and which wasn't damaged during transportation. Sent an e-mail, asking for specific information regarding that return. Got reply lacking such information, asked again, different person answering, still unsatisfying answer...rinse and repeat. In the end, I had sent seven e-mails and got a reply from a different customer service representative every single time whose answers contradicted each other too even. Went with the reply that made the most sense and seemed the most right in the end and eventually got it returned (despite some wrong information still) and my money back.

Another thing regarding wrong information on their product pages: Reporting wrong product names/descriptions and providing sources via the website was pointless and they never fixed it. After the whole ordeal with the return, I took the opportunity to tell them directly. Was told to provide a source (URL to some official website for instance) since they need it to confirm that there is something wrong there. Gave them all the URLs which included product titles, product pictures etc but they replied that they can't "use" (whatever that means) the URL (despite saying I should link it) and I'm supposed to screenshot it, upload it and then provide a link to the upload (or send it directly I guess). Of course, after everything above and now this, I was already beyond fed up and just stopped bothering since I'm certainly not gonna do their work for them. That, in addition to a website that is just getting worse and worse and worse stopped me from buying there. No point in having a bad buying experience and also knowing that, if you ever have an issue, support is gonna be an experience that will make you want to flip any tables you see for at least a few hours.

With Amazon I do like that I talk to real people, but half the time they try to give me money instead of actually trying to solve the problem.

It's great that chat is empowered to send $5 or $10, but oftentimes I just want to have my problem solved.

I don’t necessarily disagree that Spotify’s response was unsurprising, but is the number of Spotify users relevant? Logically, the number of support staff ought to scale with the number of customers. It’s not about size, it’s about where Spotify has decided to invest.

I absolutely agree that it should scale with the numbers of customers. However, from my experience working for companies that have customer support, that was definitely not the case.

Did I expect different than what I got? No, I didn't. I honestly expected exactly what I got.

Before I even emailed I had already made the decision to move, but I figured I should at least give them the opportunity to respond, and at the very minimum on my part give them feedback as to why I'm leaving.

Scale should never be an excuse for poor customer service. Customer service is part and parcel of offering a service to customers. A failure to offer good customer service is a failure of your service, period.

You pay them 120 bucks per year.

I get great customer service at the local record store, where I pay 30 bucks for an LP.

What kind of service would you expect if you ask them to give you a list of every LP you've ever purchased from them?

...I mean, video rental stores and libraries have had the ability to pull that data for a long time. Many companies, even small ones, offer loyalty programs, which would also mean they have a list of your purchases available.

Exactly, companies just see people who need support as pure cost, since they can't make money off someone who already paid for the service, they treat you like garbage.

I think the internet age has changed this. The pure cost to offer customer service is insane for the costs users are paying. If you want good customer service you're going to have to pay for it, but the market has shown that's not going to be a option, because not enough people are willing to pay for it.

Great customer service used to be a differentiator, but for many services, cost is way more important, and customers are willing to pay.

If companies weren't making millions or billions of dollars in pure profit, I'd be more inclined to agree with this line of thought.

But their profit/cost ratios are high enough to offer more customer service than they currently are.

And ultimately, it's not the customer's fault that the business is not working from a sustainable business model.

But if there was a profitable model where they offer great customer service wouldn't they? Or at least a competitor would come in who did. I don't believe spotify is making millions or billions in pure profit. Their competitors are able to position their products as loss leaders.

I agree some companies could do much better, Google is a massive example, but you still have to remember the scale. Read somewhere, If 0.1% of your users require customer service per day, and it takes 10 minutes per user, you'd need ~21k people working 8/hours to handle it each day.

> But if there was a profitable model where they offer great customer service wouldn't they? Or at least a competitor would come in who did.

They wouldn't offer great customer service, they'll offer what they feel they can get away with. And there were competitors but they were pushed out (remember RDIO?, good times).

Yeah. Companies tend to think "why get some of the profits when I can cut corners and get all of the profits". Especially when the corners aren't mandated by law (and even sometimes when the cut corners are mandated by law).

remember RDIO?

wow. I do now. Why did they shut down?

> Why did they shut down?

Because Spotify had an ad-supported free service based on selling data and paying the bare minimum it could get away with to artists, while RDIO had a subscription-only service for a long time focused on music recommendations from friends. Spotify squeezed RDIO with its free tier and monetized its user data. After a fruitless trip into online radio, RDIO were bought out by Pandora.

> you'd need ~21k people working 8/hours to handle it each day.

That's Google's problem with their business model, not the customers'.

The customer, who has by definition purchased rights to the service in question (whether with the currency of their attention, their information, or their money), deserves the attention of a human - with the ability to fix problems that arise - when they have a problem with that service that the company's self-service or automated help can not solve.

It's the customers' problem because they choose to use Google's services. Nobody is forcing them to do that.

A customer doesn't have a right to the attention of a human, at least in the US. It's your choice as a consumer to use googles services or not. Well almost, some you can't get away from which kinda makes more sense towards legislation.

I know of many people wishing to use or own a business like spotify. The barrier to entry is very high. Agreements with record companies being the biggest hurdle.

Without competitors, giving you any customer service is unnecessary if demand for the product is high.

Spend your money on a vpn.

Ok, let's use your numbers. 0.1% of days is one service call every 3 years on average, seems reasonable but 10 min may be a bit low. So lets double it.

20 min of a fully loaded 50k employee is about 8 dollars to the company. Or about 2% of a $10 subscription. And that's when I've been pretty generous.

Margins may be so tight this isn't possible, sure; but it isn't obvious. Also note is is hugely higher level of service that what is currently offered, surely there is an in between that is affordable?

Or did I miss something with this back-of-envelope?

Spotify is not making billions in pure profit... their 2020 forecast was between 150 to 250 million euro in profit... which means if they had to spend $2 euro per customer per year on customer service, they suddenly have less than zero profit.

But customers still pay in spite of that. And that is what ultimately matters.

The Google One experiment seems to be that model. Of charging a premium for actual human support.

Moreover, the obvious response when you see the poor company is in such distress from too many customers, is to do them a favor and stop being their darn pesky ol' service-wanting customer.

Exactly! Suck it up and accept that you just gave Facebook hundreds of dollars as a charitable donation and move on with your life.

You’re assuming competing services at the same price points are offering better customer service, which is doubtful.

I don't agree. All my questions to Western Digital are answered quickly and personally. Not that I am trying to promote them, but that is my most recent customer service experience.

As another example, 5 years ago, Amazon had excellent and prompt customer service, rivaled by pretty much no one. Although it has gotten worse recently.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a human to answer a customer service request in a sensible manner, when you're paying them 120$/year!

That statement's a little misleading--they only have ~100 million paid users, for whom one would think they'd prioritize support requests.

You shouldn't be surprised that support people are essentially human firewalls, and getting any sort of policy decision or assistance, especially technical, beyond their knowledge base is impossible. Even Apple support is at least an hour of talking with someone who'll read the knowledge base back to you before being escalated into "I did my homework now look at my syslog" territory.

And as always, on these types of calls, one should never take a "no" from someone who doesn't have the authority to say "yes". Of course, this has to be balanced with how much the question/problem at hand matters to you.

How do you even figure out who does and does not have the authority to say "yes" an an outsider though.

Ask to speak to their manager, or research executive support or track down corporate salaried employee's contact info online.

I work in support, have for close to a decade.

I take at least a little pride in being a personable worker who can read the situation and respond appropriately from the beginning.

Acknowledging the problem and the concerns of the customer is at least the bare minimum and they didn't even do that.

Are you doing tier-1 support for a product that costs less than the support phone call? If not, you are not in the same category.

Product I support is free, my paycheck comes from a non-profit.

Same here. I'm canceling my Spotify subscription right now and am moving to iTunes (back again). Spotify doesn't seem to support the newly announced home pods as well, which was another reason to quit my subscription, but mainly the somewhat enforced lock in from Spotify concerned me as well.

> Spotify doesn't seem to support the newly announced home pods as well

Is this really Spotifys decision or something about how Apple handles announcements and development access to their devices?

Or: Does Apple want Spotify in their game and on their devices? Or would they rather sell Apple Music subscriptions?

Apple announced a third-party SDK[0] for HomePod at the event last month, iirc the onus is on Spotify to actually implement support at this point. I'm assuming they couldn't iron something out in time for this event's announcement.

https://9to5mac.com/2020/06/22/homepod-music-services/

Isn't the homepod (mini?) issue pretty much Apple's lock-in?

AirPlay 2 is available for Mac and iOS apps, as far as I remember, but is only implemented in the iOS Spotify all

I don't think the person (if any) played to run the support bot is nearly as emotionally invested as you are. Voting with your wallet means redirecting your funds, not trying to argue with bots.

I didn't argue with the support people. I stated my concerns for what they were doing as feedback. I was going to leave it at that, but it turns out that two things are important here that continued the conversation:

1. Their response was awful

2. They require you contact support to delete your account... which, is yet another anti-consumer policy.

So if people are hating on Spotify now...

...what's the alternative? People hate Google, they hate Amazon... I remember people used to hate Apple Music years ago because it was missing tons of basic functionality.

Is it better? Is Apple Music the "accepted" streaming platform now? Do they all suck in their own way? Or is there another platform that's the good one now?

idk. I'm listening to music on YT. Because on the only vertical I care about - can I actually find the damn music I'd like to hear - YT is miles ahead anything else.

So God bless YT and its amazing, likely illegal in some abstract sense, music collection.

For a lot of the people you're asking here, the answer is probably "don't use a streaming platform to listen to music". That's why there's at least one subthread about recommended music-playing programs.

I'd like to try YouTube Music (mostly because it's included in my YouTube Premium plan), but it doesn't have an option to turn autoplay off (i.e. you can't just listen to one song), which is a dealbreaker for me.

I gave Deezer a try and I've been quite pleased. The main problem I had with Spotify was missing music from specific genres/countries. Deezer let's me upload my own mp3 files, which means it has the most complete catalogue for me that any service could have.

Google Play Music was perfect for my needs. Once it's closed, I'm going to test Qobuz and its CD-quality streams. It's probably either them or Deezer.

I'd love to take a super lightweight version of something made by the authors of https://www.bitwig.com.

Apple Music (fka iTunes) is still perfectly good as a music library. No need to subscribe to anything.

Check out Currents.fm, it's a Patreon-style economic model built into a nice player + social UI.

So the other day Spotify decided to block API access to SongShift [1], which used their API to transfer playlists to other services. By doing that, they removed a method which was valid under GDPR article 20 subsection 2 to transfer personal data directly from one controller to another. FreeYouMusic is using another process without cooperation or consent from Spotify, and doesn't include all personal data.

I've been exchanging emails with Spotify to demand that they re-enable the API or allow for some other method to transfer my personal data directly to another controller. So far they've just sent me boilerplate back telling me about their GDPR article 20 subsection 1 process. You can read the full conversation here [2].

I fully intend to file a complaint with the Dutch civil court if they don't allow me to exercise my rights under the law. It would be good to have some precedent here. As they've already shown it to be technically feasible (a requirement of the law), and enabling the process is literally a boolean away, I think such a complaint would have a high chance of success.

Additionally, in my opinion their GDPR article 20 subsection 1 process is currently also in violation, because they take up to 30 days (counting 2 now) before emailing you the ZIP with your personal data. This is arguably "undue delay" (which is prohibited under the GDPR). If it comes to a case, removing this delay will certainly be part of the demands.

[1] https://songshift.com/blog/spotify_transfers

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764371

Interesting! Will you update on the process on eg Twitter?

If this evolves further I might make a tiny website about the progress. In that case I'll put a link in my profile.

Please keep us updated

Spotify has followed the same model as many other companies, like Netflix

They are open with data, have good API's etc until they get market dominance then they stop supporting many of those same things.

They have dropped their support for Linux Clients, they closed most of their API's, and various other things

It is a repeating pattern with companies that are disrupting a market

You scared me for a minute, I thought you said Spotify dropped their Linux client

https://www.spotify.com/us/download/linux/

> Spotify for Linux is a labor of love from our engineers that wanted to listen to Spotify on their Linux development machines. They work on it in their spare time and it is currently not a platform that we actively support

So for all we know they could drop support if an employee or two leave the company.

They did, from the page

"and it is currently not a platform that we actively support."

it is a spare project from a few engineers, with no offical support from the company, if the few engineers that support it ever leave it is Dead

and it was dead for several years before the engineer got enough support to be able to do it as an unoffical project.

Funnily, they recommend Spotify as the best music streaming platform here:

https://freeyourmusic.com/en/blog/best-music-streaming-platf...

That is from February 10th

Yeah but they still linked it in the article "If you wish to migrate out of Spotify, you can move to the following music services...And if you’re still deciding which music provider to choose, take a look at our comparison of the best streaming platforms in 2020." The last sentence is linked to that article that says Spotify is their #1 choice.

I have been looking to move away from Spotify for a while now due to their lacklustre support for iOS devices. Is there a good comparison between Spotify, Apple Music and Amazon Prime Music somewhere, especially in terms of their coverage?

Are there any big differences between iOS and Android versions?

Well, for starters, they do not support Apple Watch, which is very problematic for me.

The support Apple Watch, just not downloading songs for offline usage, right?

It just works as a remote control for whatever device that you are currently playing the song.

which is basically a no-go with abysmal data plans in Canada. Why do we need to rely on mobile data so much anyway..

No. The Spotify app on the Apple Watch is a remote control for managing other devices and cannot stream songs independently. It’s insanely frustrating.

Do any of the other cloud music providers?

I think it’s more that the Apple Watch doesn’t support Spotify than the other way around. Apple prioritizes its own music service for the watch.

Apple made an Apple Music app for the watch with support for offline playback. Spotify did not.

I believe for a year or so the Watch OS has supported the APIs Spotify would need to do offline playback, but they have not yet used them for whatever reason.

This was a controversial topic actually, Spotify openly accused Apple for not providing the access to Apple Watch SDKs when Apple Music was first launched. The APIs are made available after a while I think, but Spotify is still mad.

Spotifys accusation: https://timetoplayfair.com/the-case/

Response from Apple: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/03/addressing-spotifys-c...

HN Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19377322

Other 3rd party apps can sync content for offline playback (eg. Overcast for podcasts) so I don't think there's any technical reason Spotify are not supporting it.

Does Overcast still support sync/offline playback from Apple Watch? I know it's been a bumpy feature that Marco has had trouble supporting due to API limitations and lack of demand/usage.

Yup. There was a version a few months ago that broke things but that got fixed after a few weeks.

I'm surprised to hear about the lack of usage though - Apple Watch support is the only reason I'm using Overcast.

> I think it’s more that the Apple Watch doesn’t support Spotify than the other way around.

Since, watchOS 6 - that's pretty much not true

https://9to5mac.com/2020/04/29/pandora-shows-spotify-how-to-...

https://9to5mac.com/2019/06/09/watchos-6-spotify/

What's lackluster about Spotify on iOS? I use Spotify on my iPad, my Android phone, and my Windows desktop and they all work pretty well.

> especially in terms of their coverage?

If you are a typical user with typical tastes, they are all more or less the same. If there's something in particular you want - like lossless compression or being able to upload your own music or Grateful Dead concerts - mention it and people may be able to guide you better.

You've mentioned the big three services, but you might want to also consider Google/YouTube Music, Pandora, Deezer, and Tidal and I'm sure there are more.

Spotify for Apple Watch is still basically a remote for Spotify on iOS, presumably due to some contracts between Spotify and Samsung.

So although Spotify could technically implement a standalone Apple Watch App since at least WatchOS 6 (released over a year ago now), they haven’t, which means you always need to carry your Phone with you. Their support Forum is full of complaints about this, with no proper reaction or explanation from their side.

The Apple TV app also does not work properly, requiring to re-login often and can‘t be controlled properly by iPhone.

Oh okay. So iOS is mostly fine but WatchOS and tvOS have problems?

Spotify allows you to download music to Garmin watches. Maybe you're underestimating the difficulty of porting Spotify to Apple Watch?

If you're technically proficient you can just compile this [1] and run this [2] on GCE.

I did it yesterday, works great! Offline downloading and playback of Spotify playlists on the Apple Watch, without being tethered to an iPhone.

[1] https://github.com/rafaelmaeuer/open-apollo

[2] https://github.com/lgruen/open-apollo-server

Spotify is BTW developing a proper watch app, it's in beta now:

https://9to5mac.com/2020/09/17/spotify-finally-testing-apple...

It's fine on iPad + iPhone, but their Apple Watch app was still pretty much useless last I checked (for example no way to sync songs for offline use) and they also don't seem to support the new HomePod that was just announced.

Really annoying bug where it acts as a remote control for my laptop, setting the volume on my iPhone to max. Then, the next time I use headphones on my iPhone, my eardrums get blasted out.

I’ve been getting hit by this for years. How is there still not a setting for this??

My workaround for this is to go out of my way to make sure the iOS app is closed before I resume playback on my desktop.

Spotify still doesn’t support AirPlay 2 streaming in their iOS app, so playback is susceptible to networking blips as I walk around the house into dead spots or change APs. If they supported AirPlay 2, effectively the entire song would get prebuffered and playback would never skip or stutter—even when playing to multiple AirPlay destinations.

AirPlay 2 has been out for years.

I just cancelled my Spotify (maddening playlist/album "play" button, queue management, music-start issues on iPad) and I have Youtube Music (via Premium), which I don't like because they mix "subscribed" music content on the Youtube "Subscriptions" feed.

And, a year ago, when I was subscribed to 1300 artists on Youtube Music, it killed my Youtube subscriptions feed graph -- meaning, it took more than 60 seconds for it to refresh when first starting up or switching back to Subscriptions to see if any new content was available.

Soundiiz is an interesting way to evaluate music services, in terms of which services allow/support "transfers" of artists, albums, playlists.

Apple Music doesn't really allow for it.

I was able to transfer my Spotify albums to Youtube Music, which lets me "follow" artists via [albums in library] without subscribing.

I did like Spotify because it was supported on Roku & Alexa, but I can also live with streaming stations there if I needed.

Pandora might be interesting, have to try it and may have to try transferring music to it.

Slacker LiveXLive seems to have a lot of apps on platforms...

My favorite new problem is that they support an older version of iOS than the corresponding version of WatchOS. So, when I installed a new Spotify update, it has now removed the Spotify "Complication" from my Apple Watch.

With iOS 12.0, you can only install WatchOS 5.0 on your Apple Watch. You have to upgrade iOS to install a newer WatchOS.

Spotify iOS app requires iOS 12.0, but the Watch Complication requires WatchOS 5.2. I have no choice to install an older version of the Complication, and I cannot install an older version of the Spotify app, so I simply no longer have the Spotify Complication on my watch.

The only way for me to resolve this problem is to update to a newer version of iOS. And because Apple only "signs" certain versions of iOS, I'm forced to "upgrade" all the way to iOS 14. This will mean losing access to iOS apps that are no longer supported by the developer, including ones I enjoy and don't want to lose access to.

I mean, all Spotify had to do was align their app requirements and it wouldn't be a problem. I've never had this issue with any other iOS app thus far.

Well, for what it's worth I've been using YouTube Music for over a year and it's coverage has never disappointed me - even for little-known songs (though that's relative). Just my experience and observation.

I've been wanting to write about my experiences with the streaming services that I've tried (Spotify, Deezer, AM, YTM, Tidal...) so I guess this seems like a good opportunity. This was a bit long for just a comment so I'm sharing a pastebin.

https://pastebin.com/KG5huAnn

Woah, I’ve been looking for a comparison like this for quite some time. Thank you

You're welcome. I might write it as an article so it could be shared easily.

Cheers for your write up. I noticed a typo near the bottom - "songshit" instead of "songshift" (I assume it's a typo!). Another interesting thing to compare might be the API each service offers, it's easy for most of them - none.

https://freeyourmusic.com/en/transfer-spotify-to-spotify

This is the best of the lot.

Isn't that the same site linked by this very post?

GP was referring to the source and destination

Such transfer actually made perfect sense until recently because they didn't allow to change username. It was brought up on their forums numerous times[1][2] over the years and they only introduced editable profile name in March this year. Until then they advised to create a new account and ask their support by email(sic!) to have your playlists copied.

[1] - https://community.spotify.com/t5/Accounts/How-can-i-change-m...

[2] - https://community.spotify.com/t5/Accounts/I-simply-want-to-c...

There are some problems like this that I’ve ended up solving with a scrolling capture screenshot (ShareX on Windows) and the first fitting google result for an OCR service.

Man I have been using ShareX for quite a while and didn't even realize they had that scrolling capture feature. I just keep finding their tool more and more useful.

I like your approach to getting your playlists out. I just used https://exportify.net/ and it gave me all my playlists in a CSV format with lots of information on each track such as things like genre. I feel like maybe this option may be a bit more useful to you if you want that kind of extra information.

Consider using bandcamp.com if you want to "vote with your wallet".

Funny how they didn't vet the generated content: https://freeyourmusic.com/en/transfer-spotify-to-spotify

What do you mean ? Being able to transfer from one service to the same service is still practical. It allow you to transfer playlist from one account to the other.

We still support migrating to Spotify. We want people to be able to migrate FROM and TO any music service. They get to decide what platform they want to be on.

And yes, you can import your songs between accounts on the same platform.

You can even do a Spotify "Liked Songs" to the same account of Spotify as playlist, and then you can finally share the Liked Songs as a playlist to your friends :)

If this sounds interesting feel free to ping me at twitter @bartosz

Any github repositories and code which provide Spotify playlist->txt/csv/json/xml ?

ANSWER to myself: Seems there is at least a simple drag&drop solution with the select all on desktop app -> LibreOffice https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-export-my-Spotify-playlist-as...

From elsewhere in the comments: https://github.com/pavel-aicradle/exportify

https://github.com/caseychu/spotify-backup

https://savemyspot.ca/

This exact problem has prevented me from creating playlists in the first place. I'm a non-iphone Apple Music user, but the same still applies. I have no playlists because I assume I'll lose all that curation work someday. So, I just don't do it.

I wonder how many others are the same way and how that negatively affects their revenue.

Totally understandable... because playlists are tricky.

I have a medium sized local music library and up to a few months ago have used an iTunes-like app to manage it all. Then I decided to move my music library... everything was still in the same folder, just on a new server but the playlists were all empty. I certainly was a bit freaked out when I realised that the m3u playlist files contained absolute paths to every song, instead of relative paths. Turns out that the player/manager I had used did that by default... took me a few weeks to correct everything!

I sometimes envy people with vinyl or cd collections, must be easier to deal with...

I haven't studied the fine print on this service, but I wonder about the (high?) value of knowing a person's music tastes in this level of detail. I have hundreds of playlists on spotify, and I bet you can state a lot of things about me by knowing what music I like.

Spotify has access to this information, so isn't that also a concern?

It's not generally a concern to me; I was just considering the potential monetary value of that in relation to the FreeYourMusic fee.

Last.fm allows you to track your whole listening history (and you can export it or play with their API). I agree it could be interesting to infer something valuable from what a person likes (musically), but I don't know if there's much to read between the lines other than "if user likes artist X probably will like artist Y". You may infer my location (from local artists listened), and from that paired with timestamps you could tell some of my habits (work, school, commuting). Personal taste can hint an age group and gender as well, but it wouldn't be precise at all. Perhaps mood? I don't see much value on that info, compared to what you can gather from navigation history, messages or other services.

Just a tought I've had but what if it will actually reveal more insights about their recommendation and curation algorithms than about your music taste?

This data would be more interesting over time. What new artists have been added to the playlists and have any new songs from already known artists been missed...

This sort of nonsense is why I switched to a self-hosted Emby media server.

Can confirm. This app works like a charm.

I remember attempting to move over from Spotify to Apple Music in 2017. Used some other apps at that time. Didn’t work so well. So I gave up and used Spotify for a few years. And then switched afresh to Apple Music in 2019.

Today, though, I found freeyourmusic and I was super impressed by their pricing.

Figured I’d give it a shot and I am convinced this is the best $10 I have ever spent!

Need this for Google play/youtube music.

Worst case I use OCR/mechanical turks in the future because I took screenshots.

You can get a pretty good csv dump of your play music profile through Google's general data export tool. Their migration to YouTube music is a good opportunity to see what else is out there. I'm leaning towards prime music, since they're a buck cheaper if you have prime (who doesn't?)

I dumped mine due to the impending shutdown. I only had a quick look, but the data format looked atrocious.

I'm not sure you could actually do it worse, mine was a folder for every playlist, with a CSV for each song.

Trivial for me as a programmer to reformat, but useless for the general public.

I can only assume that was an aggressive answer to "what if their playlist is, like, REALLY big?"

I have used https://soundiiz.com/ a month ago to transfer all my music lists from Google to Spotify (yeah, the irony...) after many years of having music subscription with them. I just cannot stand the quality drop (and build-for-cheap-tv normalization levels) of sound on Youtube Music.

Agree, irregular volume levels on YouTube Music between songs is really frustrating. And some even sound like MP3 rips of MP3 rips.

https://soundiiz.com/pricing This gives you exactly what they claim to work on without charging half as much. Basically, it's free if all you wanna do is transfer music.

> As we don’t use the official Spotify SDK, we’re not bound to their Terms of Service.

I'm not sure how this can be true. Their terms of service specifically ban users from reverse engineering unofficial parts of the product.

Either way, I'd be interested to know how it actually works.

Isn't there an online version of Spotify? Doesn't seem like it would be overly complex to login with the users credentials and scrape the data, much like how some of the federated banking APIs work.

You have to actually agree to the terms (either through website or SDK usage) in order to be bound by them. IANAL

I’m just waiting for an open source solution. All these closed source payment requires apps kinda scare me with the permissions they need - Like you just know they’re hacked together scripts that are likely storing and transmitting your tokens in plain text.

It would probably be easy to write a bookmarklet that extracts your music into csv.

Then you can save it and upload it to wherever you like.

You probably would have to write a second little script to convert the csv into the format of the service you want to upload it to.

> For a limited time, you can redeem the code SPOTIFYSUCKS and get 42.069% off on all plans.

Nice

Damn, just spent a fiver on Soundiiz, which is quite nice in all honesty.

It did the trick! https://soundiiz.com/

"For a limited time, you can redeem the code SPOTIFYSUCKS and get 42.069% off on all plans." - I applaud, you good sir. I applaud you.

I've not used any of these services but I'd be interested to know what the portable identifiers look like. Can anyone explain?

https://savemyspot.ca/

Doesn't the GDPR require that users have the ability to download their data?

Yup. in a usable and machine processable format.

Spotify can argue that they allow it per user request and they do have control over their public API. And they exercise their option to block unwanted services to use their API. Shitty, but theoretically legal.

The service in question from OP is not using Spotify's API so no license applied. It sounds like they're automating/scraping, which in the US at least, was just ruled legal.[1] Of course, that puts scraper and scrapee into a leapfrog contest.

As OP points out, the best defense against customers leaving is to actually listen to them and please them. In this area, while Spotify might have a giant catalog, they are blatantly tormenting users by removing obvious, simple, features demanded by the thousands of votes on their forum.

1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2019/09/10/linke...

Based on the article - I wouldn't be surprised if they complied by providing you a SHA256 hash for every song in your playlist.

They do give you you a list of playlists containing song titles and artists.

Just requested my file, they say it'll take up to 30 days to get my data. Let's see.

Edit: still waiting, but found an example here:

https://observablehq.com/@a-lexwein/what-i-got-when-i-reques...

Seems quite usable data.

When this came up on Reddit the other day, someone mentioned that most of the data is limited to the last two years, with playlists created before that not appearing. Something to keep an eye open for.

Hilarious. You don't own shit with streaming, if you want to own buy mp3s or CDs and rip. You'll own it and it will sound vastly better especially if it's from a CD.

The discussion is about playlists, not about streaming vs ripping shit.

I guess I'm lucky that this particular problem is not one that bothers me much.

My playlists tend to be

a) quite short ~30 songs I listen on repeat until the mood changes and / or work requires a different rhythm and

b) are not that many. Only around 10 in active use at any time. I tend to delete older lists to not clutter "my library"

This leads me to the conclusion that a one time (GDPR) data dump would be sufficient to migrate the data over time.

Since Music is quite fungible, the one benefit Spotify offers over other services is their recommendation engine which is arguably better than the competition.

This is actually part of the problem I have. I only really have a few artists I may listen to on a more frequent basis, but other than that I am usually just using random playlists from Spotify that fit my mood rather than spending time making my own.

However I have been having a couple issues. Everything was working fine, but then I started using Spotify at the gym almost daily for workout music. The music genres I like to listen to while working out are vastly different from what I listen to at home. To further compound this problem I often listen to podcasts in the car and don't listen to Spotify much at home. So a good chunk of my usage of Spotify is listening to music at the gym. As such my recommendations are complete garbage. I don't care to be suggested music related to gym music as I just pull up random playlists anyway. But what I do want is suggestions for what to listen to when I am at home. Problem is that Spotify has no incognito mode or any way to tell it to "ignore this from recommendations".

That was actually one of the biggest draws for me was using stuff like "Discover Weekly" and the "Made for you" stuff. But now it is essentially useless for me. Now I have been trying to transition to Plexamp as I already use Plex. My problem is that now I have zero suggestions of what new songs to acquire and I feel stuck.

spotify has chosen the "become you the thing you hate" path

Perfect, I have been wanting to get off of Spotify ever since they teamed up with Joe Rogan.

... why ? Isn't Joe Rogan pro Bernie as an example ?

Unfortunately the longer time passes, Rogan is pro and against and in between on everything. He's been much more receptive to right leaning perspectives and more critical to extreme left, but also much less critical to the extreme right and much less tolerant of left leaning. Its been incredibly disappointing that he has gotten so out of touch with the style and approach that gained him his podcast prestige.

Do you include the "trans" stuff here ?

Sure, though his position hasn't changed much on trans. I've always agreed with him that people who switch genders shouldn't be treated equally when it comes to contact sports like UFC. He's just been more distasteful about discussing it over time IMO.

If I had to sum up how Rogan has changed, he reminds me of many older men who just start to become aholes to everyone and everything, and believe that everything always deserves criticism while rarely deserving to be taken seriously. Though age is a factor, I think his FU money and success has completely gotten to his head.

I was a fan for years from about episode 50, but rarely listen/watch now. His exclusivity is not a factor keeping me subscribed if I consider leaving Spotify in the future.

> he reminds me of many older men who just start to become aholes to everyone and everything

This smacks of ageism AND sexism, all at once! Congratulations, you've violated your own morality code. And you were SO close to the -ism hat trick, had you only referred to him as an "older white man" ;)

It took a while for gay marriage to become broadly accepted. Trans is fighting the same battle now. He's a very typical older cismale and this population segment is, by and large, just not going to "get it" yet.

I don't think it's just confined to white older men, rather old men generally as I stated. Not an absolute either, as I stated "many" and not "all". I'm not going to pretend that the majority of progressive minds are concentrated in the older populace, because constantly I find life experience to demonstrate otherwise.

I'm not sure what there is to "get" about trans. I think everyone deserves to be treated with decency and respect, while also believing there is plenty to discuss about the moral and ethical aspects of hormone treatment (particularly during childhood), genderless bathrooms, etc.

> I'm not sure what there is to "get" about trans.

There are questions that are easy to answer that you have touched on such as bathrooms (just make them all solo and genderless), and decency/respect (give it to everyone, obviously).

There are also FAR more difficult questions to answer such as, how to treat the gender separation in sports and where trans fits in there “fairly”? What to do if there is post-surgery regret? Why can a person consent to a drastic and permanent gender/sex change operation (the effects of some hormones at certain ages is irreversible) while being unable to consent to sex itself? (this is not an appeal to pedophilia as much as it is one of non-hypocrisy).

> He's been much more receptive to right leaning perspectives and more critical to extreme left, but also much less critical to the extreme right and much less tolerant of left leaning.

So your argument is basically "this person is somewhere else on the political spectrum than I am, therefore he must be cancelled from Spotify"?

So, I didn't say anything about cancelling Rogan from Spotify. I think Spotify overspent on him but I could care less that they did.

And my argument is that Rogan used to lean left in his own views, but was tolerant overall for the majority of the bell curve. Now, Rogan has shifted rightward personally, but has abandoned giving due time and thought to much of the left side of the bell curve. He's more narrow minded and quick to criticize what were previously ideas and arguments that deserved to be taken seriously (and still do).

Were the criticisms rational, or merely distasteful?

Interesting. Do you apply this to all platforms?

If a supermarket sells products that you like, alongside products you don't like, do you stop shopping there?

Believe it or not you don’t have to apply the most extreme form of your belief system across every aspect of your life.

I eat a plant based diet but I still shop at a grocery store that has a butcher counter, for example.

Not the GP, but yes, definitely. If a store or brand has collaborations with the wrong people etc., that's definitely a reason to not shop there. I don't find Joe Rogan terrible enough to cancel my spotify subscription, but if they started collaborating with say Alex Jones, I'd find another streaming service in a heartbeat.

Alex Jones has been on Joe Rogan.

Yes, which is one reason I dislike Rogan. However, Spotify and Jones aren't in direct business (making money off their business deal together). I'm fine with Spotify and Rogan doing business.

It's not that I go around worrying about what's said in every song and podcast on Spotify, it's rather whether I agree with Spotify's business practices or not. I wish Spotify told Rogan to stop having conspiracy theorists on his show (unless they are critically exposed), but I don't consider Alex Jones as being a part of Spotify's business model because he is a guest in one of their pods.

Are they the same person?

Not sure... Has anyone ever seem them in the same place at the same time?

Are you trying to give the impression that you‘ve never heard of boycotting before?

Why yes, I do apply the same purity test in every aspect of my life.

Your analogy is intellectually dishonest and uninspired.

Are you not extremely limited then?

I don/t think the supermarket is a good example, but if a branch company made a product that i see as harmless, i would stop buying from all the other branch. Kinda hard to do grocery shopping without Nestlé and Lactalis, but i somehow manage.

https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/

There's a bit of difference between "my grocery store sells seaweed snacks and I don't like them" and "this company gave $100M to someone problematic".

I wouldn't, but realistically all supermarkets sell so many products that you are bound to find something you object to, if only in the book or newspaper stand.

Yes, why is this weird to you?

If a supermarket were out there promoting… I dunno, their range of confederate flags or something, I’d probably choose not to shop there.

What if they were promoting a company that funds misleading nutrition research to fool people into thinking sugar is less harmful, leading to countless early deaths and diabetes?

What about a company that's the largest plastic polluter in the world, that also lobbies to kill regulation to reduce plastic pollution? It's hard to know the full extent of the harm microplastics cause the ecosystem, but it's unlikely to be small.

How far do you have to drive to find a supermarket that doesn't sell Coca-Cola? Or is that not worth the same level of condemnation as interviewing the wrong person?

> How far do you have to drive to find a supermarket that doesn't sell Coca-Cola?

Sounds like you've identified the key difference on your own?

Spotify can be avoided. Groceries largely cannot.

(There's also a difference in revenue model. You can't subscribe to Spotify without part of that money going to Rogan. You can skip Coca-Cola products at the grocery store and ensure the companies you don't like see $0 from you.)

> You can't subscribe to Spotify without part of that money going to Rogan.

Can't you? Rogan's compensation isn't based on Spotify's total profits, and if you don't listen to him, you won't be contributing to his audience size either, and Spotify will be able to see that in their metrics. If tomorrow Spotify gains 100 million new users, that then never listen to a single Rogan episode, how would that increase Rogan's compensation?

Are you genuinely unable to see the difference between the two revenue models? I'm really not all that interested in absurd hypotheticals.

If I buy a Coke at my grocery store, Coke's getting some of that money. If I buy a Pepsi, Coke gets none of that. I can boycott specific companies while still buying groceries, and again, opting out of food is an issue.

If Rogan were an optional premium paid add-on channel on Spotify, the two would be far more comparable.

> If I buy a Coke at my grocery store, Coke's getting some of that money. If I buy a Pepsi, Coke gets none of that.

And if you subscribe to Spotify but don't listen to Rogan, Rogan also gets none of that. If you believe otherwise, please explain how.

> And if you subscribe to Spotify but don't listen to Rogan, Rogan also gets none of that. If you believe otherwise, please explain how.

Rogan's not being paid per stream like song artists are.

If I pay for Spotify, my $10/month revenue goes to pay their expenses. One of those expenses is Rogan's $100M contract.

The mere act of shopping at the grocery store doesn't send money to Coca-Cola. I have to specifically buy one of their products.

And if you shop at a grocery store, your money goes to pay their expenses. One of those expenses if stocking Coca-Cola. See how easy it is to make it seem like you contribute to something if you join all capital flows into one big pool?

You have to explain how Rogan would get more money if you subscribe to Spotify, than if you didn't subscribe.

How far do you have to drive to find a supermarket that doesn't sell Coca-Cola? Or is that not worth the same level of condemnation as interviewing the wrong person?

Everybody gets to choose what they are and are not willing to support with their money. Some things I am willing to compromise to avoid; other things I am not. Extremely strange to me how many of you want to perform these weird mental gymnastics to suggest that people should be ashamed of not handing their money over to people or causes they disagree with.

You sound like you've never heard of boycotting. Yes, that what you described is how boycotting works. It's a very common thing. It ranges from civil rights activists boycotting segregated buses to religious conservatives boycotting stores that sell birth control/plan B to people using lyft instead of uber because of all the issues at uber. One of my friends refused to buy milk from Oberweis, a dairy company in the Chicago area, because they discriminated against polish immigrants like his grandparents way back when, so his family had decided to boycott them forever. This is not some sort of new concept.

Except that there is nothing wrong with Joe Rogan. Not liking someone (or one of their guests) is a really terrible and irrational reason to not use an entire platform.

Feeling that a platform invests in or promotes dangerous or harmful content is a totally valid reason to want to use that platform less, or to stop giving them money. Really super strange that you don’t immediately see that.

Please show me where Rogan promotes "dangerous or harmful content". Also show how mere information can be harmful. Reading "Mein Kampf" won't turn me into a Nazi, but it might make me understand Nazism better.

> Also show how mere information can be harmful.

Any scenario where critical context is left out, like "some vaccines contain mercury, a deadly neurotoxin!" memes.

> Reading "Mein Kampf" won't turn me into a Nazi, but it might make me understand Nazism better.

There are substantially better ways to understand Nazism than reading Mein Kampf.

> Any scenario where critical context is left out, like "some vaccines contain mercury, a deadly neurotoxin!" memes

Fair rebuttal, although in a population that has been taught how to think critically (not ours, unfortunately), this might be far less of an issue

Is it better? Is Apple Music the "accepted" streaming platform now? Do they all suck in their own way? Or is there another platform that's the good one now? Http://pkvlive.com

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