Slipping away from the Perl community
perlbuzz.com
perlbuzz.com
If people don't like you they won't listen to you even if you're right. Even in geek circles logos is the last form of rhetoric to be considered.
There's nothing more pathetic and annoying than and "I'm leaving" blog post. They always take the same format: a bunch of complaints leveled against nameless individuals (but they know who they are, that sort of thing) and lip service to the author's pet peeve that nobody else cares about.
I mean, it kind of started off with a big invitation to please roll your eyes: 43? 43 is not that old. You're tired of all "the arguing"? Stop arguing. But let's start at the end, because that's where the meat of this post is.
"I'm tired of seeing cool new projects and realizing I will never use them, because I don't want to be associated with key members of the communities surrounding them."
This is stupid. He's tired of acting like a petulant child, he says.
"I'm tired of those unable or unwilling to see outside their blinkered little world, and to think that others might think differently, and to think that their feelings might matter."
So he writes a blog post and put a reddit vote-me-up on the side.
"I'm tired of having to delete comments on Perlbuzz because the commenters can't manage to make a point without slinging insults at those with whom they disagree."
You moderate a community. It's not a status position, it's a job. If it's too much work, you can quit. Nobody will hate you for it. People quit staff positions in the big communities I'm a part of all the time; they usually stay in the community and they're just tired of taking care of it. It's fair, and it doesn't require a rant.
Obviously he's not happy with the state of moderation on perlbuzz, but that's something best taken up with the rest of the staff "hey $name, we should crack down on insults more" not the community at large. When moderators do this, it ends up making the whole community look bad. That shouldn't surprise you, because "making the community look bad" is clearly the intent of his little rant here. He's mud-slinging.
"That means less contribution, technical and otherwise, from me, and from the others who have shared the same concerns with me regarding their own contributions."
What's funny is this is probably the kind of status game he's complaining about up above. The people who are the most profane and arrogant in a community are none-too-rarely the people who estimate highly the value of their contributions (be they commensurately brilliant a la Gregory House or otherwise).
I'm sure -- I don't know the guy, but I can give him the benefit of the doubt -- I'm sure Andy Lester has made some pretty valuable contributions to the Perl community in the past. So, yes, "Perl loses because of it." This little ending touch is apparently Mr. Lester's way of totally disclaiming involvement in the situation; he's absolutely refusing to take responsibility for leaving. And Perl loses because of it.
Now on to the totally unrelated personal quest that nobody cares about he tries to make it applicable to the situation.
>I'm tired of hearing that profanity in written communication doesn't matter because hey, it's just words, man.
This is a curveball. How do you think this little unrelated tidbit made it in to the post? I mean, what does it have to do with anything?
As far as I can tell, it's clearly a reference to some other argument. It's an argument he also probably lost, because nobody keeps complaining and carrying on about the arguments they won. It's lame to bring it up while complaining about the general attitude of the Perl community towards each other.
<tangent>
It's also an argument where, if you ask me, he's totally wrong. Profanity - fuck, shit, cunt, piss, asshole, cocksucker - the complaint is leveled against those who say these are "just words", and perhaps "just words" isn't a very good description. Profanity is more like noise. Its effect when added to a sentence is to make the rest of the sentence louder. It has no intrinsic kindness or meanness to it. Some of the best parts of life are "fucking awesome"; the worst are "fucking terrible" or even "fucking shitty".
So it's a part of the English language, and it gets plenty of use in text because there aren't many ways to make text "loud". It's a natural human instinct to talk louder when you're angry or excited, and complain as much as you will that instinct really isn't going anywhere fast. Even those who abstain from "fuck" and "shit" find other ways to amplify their statements, be it through an excessive use of formatting (bold formatting is both louder and more visually offensive than italic formatting), plenty of symbolic annotation (by surrounding words with -dashes-, \asterisks\, /slashes/, or _underscores_), or abuse of grammatical conventions (these are too numerous to list, but include writing every word on it's own line, Capitalizing Every Word In The Sentence, putting. a. period. after. everything., or the dreaded "allcaps").
To me, it's pointless and silly and even elitist in some cases to argue over how precisely this amplification of textual communication is done. To draw a distinction between the guy who peppers his sentence with "cunt" and the guy who murders my linefeed with his Enter key is disingenuous, and to exile those who don't use whatever a community's "preferred" amplification style is insular and xenophobic. Profanity ranks quite low on the scale of offenses here, because it is perhaps the easiest to ignore and I'd rather see it than most of the alternatives.
</tangent>
A bit of background: I'm not a part of the Perl community; I have scant knowledge of Perl but as far as I know it's a fine language used and maintained by plenty of talented individuals and I've heard Moose is really cool though I can't make head or tail of it.
I do, however, know pathetic when I see it.
EDIT: I hope this isn't too personal. The main point is not "I hate Andy Lester" -- just please don't ever imitate what he's doing here.
E.g. If the management at a company is doing something that the employees don't like, "voting with your feet" without telling management why you are leaving guarantees that nothing will change. Other than maybe adding a 'Casual Tuesday' (or some other HR BS) in an attempt to raise morale.
I'm saying that his behavior is bad for the community, both Perl's and ours. I'm saying it to "the HN community", because I have nobody else to say it to.
We've seen this before. It was titled "Rails is a ghetto" and whatever change it inspired didn't cover the drama it caused. Zed himself said he was sorry to have written it.
Banning you from a project is not hypocritical on his part -- it's exactly what he's talking about. He feels, rightly or wrongly, that it's better to remove the source of incivility than to put up with it. You've got a lot of obvious talent and knowledge, but yes, Andy might be a good role model for civil interactions.
Why? Because I don't like iPads?
It was Andy Lester who took up the slack and organised programmers for the orphaned Perl code written by the late Iain "Spoon" Truskett, fellow Aussie & Perl programmer ~ http://search.cpan.org/~spoon/ who passed away in 2004. For any negative stories you hear there are always going to be some positive ones. Further reading here ~ http://use.perl.org/~goon/journal/16893
The context was my asking "why didn't The Perl Foundation get any Google SoC projects?" I then implied that they don't do a whole lot, because I checked their IRS filings and noticed that they had several hundred thousand dollars sitting in a checking account. Why not put it in a savings account?
We then get to being banned from contributing to HTML::Tidy:
22:48 <@jrockway> fine, i will happily mentor someone in an area i am familar
with
22:48 <@jrockway> i have no problem with that at all
22:48 <@jrockway> next year.
22:48 <@Andy> That doesn't do much good now.
22:48 <@jrockway> what can i do this year?
22:48 <@Andy> Well, for one you can quit denigrating TPF about how useless it
is.
22:49 <@jrockway> no, i can't do that
22:49 <@jrockway> what's something real i can do
22:49 <@Andy> I'm sorry to hear that you can't do that.
22:49 <@Andy> because I think that's pretty much a requirement to help out.
22:49 <@jrockway> no, it's not
22:49 <@Andy> Nobody wants help from someone who's complaining about things.
22:49 <@jrockway> you should accept help even if people don't like you (not you
personally, i mean the TPF)
22:49 <@jrockway> fine
22:49 <@jrockway> i will continue to whine then
22:50 <@jrockway> that's good for everyone
22:50 <@Andy> I have no doubt about that.
22:50 * jrockway goes to work on perl projects
22:50 <@elliot> :/
22:50 <@Andy> Not HTML::Tidy, though.
22:50 <@jrockway> "THATS MINE DON'T TOUCH IT"
22:50 <@jrockway> so constructive
22:51 <@Andy> No, I just don't need help from someone who bashes and denigrates.
22:51 <@jrockway> that's childish, but whatever
22:53 <@Andy> Not sure how choosing to decide who to work with is childish.
22:53 <@jrockway> meritocracy
22:54 <@jrockway> i accept patches / comments from anyone
22:54 <@jrockway> if the code is good, i could care less who gives it to me
22:54 <@Andy> Open source is about more than code.
22:54 <@jrockway> to you
22:55 <@hobbs> actually its motto is "shut up and show us the code"
22:55 <@jrockway> to me it is about code and solving problems
22:55 <@jrockway> hobbs++
22:55 <@Andy> Not all problems are solved through code.
22:56 <@jrockway> to be honest i haven't run into anyone that i have personal
problems with
22:56 <@jrockway> and mst is often not very nice to me
22:56 <@chargrill> well, mst is often a jerk to a lot of people.
22:56 <@jrockway> i get over it, he's a good programmer
22:56 <@jrockway> he says the same about me
22:56 <@Andy> jrockway: There are plenty of people you have personal problems
with.
22:56 <@jrockway> i don't like that implication
22:56 <@Andy> OK.
22:57 <@jrockway> i have no problems with you, i have a problem with TPF
22:57 <@jrockway> i am not the only one
22:57 <@Andy> I wasn't talking about me.
22:58 <@jrockway> do we really need to focus on "who likes who"
22:59 <@jrockway> i mean, there's myspace for that
22:59 <@Andy> It's a key part of open source.
22:59 <@Andy> And I'd ask you to consider that.
23:01 <@jrockway> so what's the resolution to this?
23:01 <@jrockway> i still dislike TPF, and you have one fewer developer on
HTML::Tidy?
23:01 <@jrockway> that is always good
23:01 <@jrockway> big win for everyone
Incidentally, a few people created a new TPF-like entity. So I must have not been the only person in the world that didn't think they were amazingly effective or transparent.Most of that money is seed money for YAPC::NA, as I understand it.
b. I'm a user, and I don't think his comment was suitable. How else can users express whether or not they find a comment suitable unless they say so?
In a nutshell, I don't think people should fling around implicit accusations of hypocrisy without some form of evidence that can be verified.
Isn't that what the upvote-downvote system is for?
Perl loses for lots of other reasons than profanity and verbal abuse.
If you're tired, take a nap. When you wake back up, the world won't seem such a horrid place, and you'll be able to get back to making cool software again instead of lamenting.
Aside: I don't think that he was being literal in his use of the word 'tired.' I don't know if it was intentional or not, but you're response comes off a bit like this:
person 1: I'm sick and tired of dealing with these
issues!
person 2: If you're sick, then you should see a doctor!Many people contribute to open source projects for years without complaining about rudeness. Successful leaders like DHH and Linus even come across as rude themselves. I imagine that people that aren't bothered by rudeness have an easier time collaborating than those who are.
Many people don't contribute to open source projects because rudeness discourages them from contributing.
I'd rather have more people contribute (and feel good for doing so).
So apparently people believe that the world is just great for the overly-sensitive. Weird.
Anyway, here's your chance to downvote me a second time!