When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
1. School is probably the best public invention to systematically distribute knowledge to the masses. Some like to point out "dropouts", "self-taught" geniuses or the "lucky few" as models instead of exceptions to the rule.
2. Not everyone is self-motivated to learn. Children, at critical developmental ages, are more prone to be led astray than "follow their passions" (at this age, really?). They will more likely be manipulated by vices if not constantly monitored. Note: Even adults struggle to find their "passion", good for the lucky few.
3. Not all parents are good teachers. Usually, responsible families understand the value proposition- they wish their children have a better future- and education is the most assured/common ticket that provides these opportunities.
4. School's purpose is not to teach obedience or even getting a job. It is there to teach us critical thinking, and consequently, how to be a good citizen. An educated population is also less prone to fall into totalitarianism. Ex: Nazi Germany and Mao's China burned books and persecuted the educated (1984 style).
Public schools, with all its flaws, are the best instruments to free the masses. Knowledge is democratized power to avoid the corruption that absolute power entails.
Germany was among the most highly educated countries in the world in the 1930s. The Russian Revolution was an elite phenomenon. In a country of peasants the Revolution was of and by the intelligentsia. Whatever else you might say about them they weren’t uneducated.
The German ban on home schooling is explicitly to prevent the formation of parallel societies. It would be hard to be clearer that the purpose of the “education” system is indoctrination.
If you want to teach things the best and most efficient way to do so is explicitly. The enormous majority of people do not generalize learning beyond its context. Whether transfer of learning even exists is a hot topic in psychological research. It is certainly not a strong effect. If school was to teach critical thinking it should be doing so explicitly. It doesn’t and there’s little reason to believe it’s especially good at it.
School is excellent at inuring children to boredom, obeying authority and pointless busywork.
At the lower income levels the only thing taught is boredom, authority, and pointless busywork.
Adult Literacy in the United States: https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp
It's not perfect, but from the most remote deserts of Arizona to rural Appalachia, to Compton, to rural Colorado, our public school system chugs away.
By hood or by crook, or by underfunded inner-city/rural public school, we're teaching a hell of a lot of kids to read and write, multiply and divide. Skills that many parents can't teach on their own, and that most kids wouldn't go out of their way to learn if you left them alone.
I attended elementary through middle-school at a district too poor to offer a high-school chemistry class, and still learned my times tables and how to write a paragraph. I even went on to Community College, a state school, a state-school masters, and an MD on scholarship. Sure, I didn't get the chance to take AP classes, and I didn't have some fancy robotics class, but I just can't bring myself to bash the public school system that got me to where I am. Sure, I didn't get everything a kid growing up in Pasadena got, but California has a robust-enough public-education system through the Community Colleges and UC/Cal-State system that it wasn't a dealbreaker in the least.
I don't know what district you attended, but if you took nothing away other than 'boredom, authority, and pointless busywork,' I'm curious as to how exactly we are debating this point in written English.
I think it's a slap to the face of a lot of teachers doing their best, as well as their students, to say that kids in disadvantaged districts learn nothing other than how to sit still and listen to authority. I learned quite a bit, in fact.
I have to agree. In fact, I was explicitly told as much by my high school Physics teacher after I openly said that I thought the school's "Excellence Program" wasn't particularly challenging.
His take was that he realized that it was easy for me, but there were some teachers who were trying as hard as they could to give the students a good education while the rest dismissed us as being a bunch of unreachable ghetto kids that they were wasting their time on. Sure, I was a 17 year-old punk kid but he was right: I was basically crapping on the people who were trying to make a difference and at the same time putting down a lot of my classmates who were working as hard as they could to get good grades, many of them in very difficult life circumstances.
I guess I don't have a point other than to say I agree with yours :-)
I have a feeling that pointless busywork always grows to however much people can bear, so maybe if school didn't condition people to be so tolerant of it, we'd have less of it.
And no matter where I've gone, from Honduras to Pakistan, to Germany, to San Bernardino, folks have been waiting in lines for things, and doing stuff that didn't really matter.
Doing stuff that sucks seems to be an unfortunate consequence of social organization for all of us normal folks who can't pay to skip the line.
It seems to me that, to responsibly make a statement of that form, you would have to look at when the system was created and look at the motivations of the people who created it (or made significant changes to the system and its objectives). If we're talking about the compulsory education system, that means looking at when the compulsory education laws were first passed, and what was said by those advocating the laws (and, possibly, deciding if they were telling the truth and if they had additional motivations).
Can you honestly say you've looked into that? Do you even know when compulsory education laws were passed in your state (U.S. or otherwise)? I'm not really picking on you specifically—I had to look it up (1874 in California).
I stress this because, while ostensibly school is for "education", if you point out that it's not doing that nearly as well as it could, ten people will say "Well, really school is for X", and you'll get about five different values of X, some of which contradict each other. This is the hallmark of people making up rationalizations for something they truly don't understand.
(To take an example, even for something like compliance—I do imagine that employers use "suffered through school without getting kicked out" as a sign of compliance, but if you imagined an institution optimized for providing that signal, I suspect making it through one month of military boot camp is a stronger signal of that, and obviously way more efficient than spending 12 years in school. Or if you want compliance without that kind of physical stress, then some variant of extreme ascetic monk training would probably do it.)
Murray Rothbard says that compulsory education in Europe was first established by Protestant Reformation leaders—Martin Luther and his followers, and John Calvin—and that their primary motive was to promulgate their religious ideas and suppress religious heresy; and that the Calvinist Puritans brought this approach to America (starting with Massachusetts and more generally New England). "Only a year after its first set of particular laws, the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1642 enacted a compulsory literacy law for all children. ... In 1647, the colony followed up this law with the establishment of public schools. The major stress in the compulsory education was laid on the teaching of Calvinist-Puritan principles." Doing my own research, I verify that Massachusetts's 1647 laws[1] required that parents "once a week (at the least) catechize their children and servants in the grounds & principles of Religion" in the very next sentence after the requirement to "[e]nable them perfectly to read the English tongue".
As for what animated the educationists who successfully established compulsory public education in most of the American states in the mid-late 1800s, Rothbard describes it in the following link. Rothbard is an ideological libertarian, but he forms his arguments from plenty of primary and secondary sources which he cites. https://mises.org/library/education-free-and-compulsory-1/ht...
[1] https://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/the-law...
Do you figure I'm making a good point, or do you disagree? If I'm wrong, what is the point of school? Why does every country do it?
Again, curious to hear your thoughts.
Some simply thought education was good and weren't bothered by the coercion.
Some subscribed to the absolutist State view going back to Luther and Calvin—people saying things like "in these schools the precepts of morality and religion should be inculcated, and habits of subordination and obedience be formed", "that a teacher must lead his students to accept the existing government", "the children belong to the State and not to their parents", etc.
And some had egalitarian aims along the lines of what you describe. "The vigorous championing of the public school's leveling role appeared again and again in the educationists' literature. Samuel Lewis particularly stressed that the common schools would take a diverse population and mold them into "one people;" Theodore Edson exulted that in such schools the good children must learn to mingle with the bad ones, as they will have to do in later life", and others are cited too.
Although you may be surprised at how far they go. Rothbard says that Owen and Wright—Wikipedia identifies them as utopian socialists—had very extreme plans involving the State raising all children away from their parents in a uniform environment, as the logical conclusion of making the childhoods of the rich and the poor be totally equal; those are the only two he cites advocating this, but he claims they were very influential, the essays published with approval by a great many newspapers, etc. Could be.
Back to what you said: The "including teaching it's boredom, authority, and pointless busywork"—well, authority yes, but the boredom and busywork seem pretty clearly not part of the original plan. I think that's an accident which has developed since then. Which brings me to this point:
Supposing that the above describes the state of affairs in the mid-1800s, a great deal of time has elapsed since then. Private companies with clear goals develop cancer (that is, pockets of people acting selfishly at the organization's expense and subverting the organization's usual methods of enforcing its objectives) on smaller timescales than that. You should expect some ... evolution.
Generally, I expect incentives to direct the evolution of an organization. If we consider the "customers" of an organization to be those who decide if it gets funding, then the customers of a public school are primarily the voters or the politicians they elect, not the students or the parents—except insofar as those can influence voters. (Also, sometimes a school is allocated funds proportional to the number of students, so students voting with their feet could be a force; on the other hand, switching schools involves hassle, losing one's entire social group, and likely a longer commute, so it's likely not used often.)
We might expect this to mean that schools would tend to implement policies that make things pleasant for school employees at the expense of students, as long as they can't be turned into public relations disasters. Continually increasing the homework load, starting school extra-early for teenagers despite decades of research about sleep schedules showing that's a bad idea, and assigning busywork (either in the sense of "literally to keep the students busy while the teacher can sit and relax", or in the sense of "make all 20 students do an extra 5 problems because of the 1-2 people who need the practice") are all examples of this. (Note that, for all these, opposition can be dismissed as "the complainers are lazy bums".) I've had a case where a teacher—a nice guy and a smart guy, I liked and respected him—told me that, if he made an exception to implement my request, he'd have 100 parents beating down his door with their own requests—so, keeping his negotiating position with parents was more important than designing a better program for his student (well, from his incentives, it was more important).
It could be worse. The book "Little Soldiers"—based on what I've read[1] about it—depicts what is apparently considered good practice in modern Chinese education. Students starting at age 3 are required to sit very still and do a delicate and pointless task over and over, and are yelled at whenever they mess up—all to establish "discipline" as early as possible. Parents are expected to fawn over the teachers and, under the table, to buy them gifts. This seems pretty clearly the end state of "optimized for school employees at the expense of students and parents" (well, I guess I could imagine it going even farther...). It seems American parents are more unruly and have a better negotiating position than that.
But generally, beware of ascribing purpose to any particular part of school. If the school was laid out in a coherent design by one person, and it's relatively young and small, and has good competition—then maybe you can expect most of it to be part of the plan. But public schools that have existed for a long time... When you experience busywork, it's not the taste of egalitarianism; it's the taste of organizational cancer.
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/cz48fp/litt... and the discussion at https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/01/22/book-review-review-lit...
In the general population there appears to be very little critical thinking, ability to regulate emotions, cost benefit analysis, consideration of opportunity cost, probabilistic thinking, nor even a rudimentary understanding of the scientific method, political and legal system.
The real issue is with the politicians, and the fact we don't have proportional representation. There is a significant percentage of the population with no real representation. I do not relate with either Tories or Labor and I don't think either has my best interests at heart.
Nor do most voters. They have to keep FPTP because they know that otherwise, most people won't vote for them; the last 4 times the UK had nationwide elections held under a more proportional system, most voters voted for parties other than labour of the Conservatives.
> I don't think either has my best interests at heart.
Most people agree with you!
My description of the unwashed masses applies to plenty of highly educated people too.
To the list, I would also add that people don’t seem to look at root causes of problems. This can be seen very clearly in the dysfunctional housing market. High rents are the fault of greedy landlords. As if landlords can just choose the price irrespective of the market! And a common objection to building more housing is that it wouldn’t be affordable. Using that logic, there would have been no point in planting potatoes during the Irish potato famine because they would be too expensive.
I am very pleased with the level of critical thinking and lively argument we get over the dining room table about the issues of the day. My youngest daughter hs just started GCSE history and sociology and I am being constantly schooled on the ills of society.
I would more blame the newspapers and other media for poor understanding of issues, which is mostly deliberate on the part of the Murdoch press.
Yes, totalitarian states have used education to indoctrinate masses to maintain order and power. Depends on who does the teaching and how it is taught, that is why critical thinking is key.
Given this prerequisite, is an educated population easier to be manipulated than an illiterate one?
Good question. Depends on how the education is done. If the education is done to instill the idea that one must "believe in science", instead of learning the facts and questioning them skeptically, if one is convinced that expressing dissent is harmful and akin to violence, if questioning the dominating framework is actively discouraged and dissenters are viciously attacked, if people are taught that there can be no honest disagreement, and any different of opinion is nothing but a power move in an oppression framework, if everybody is assigned their places and recommended opinions in advance, if they are instructed that any non-conforming opinion must be silenced and suppressed - then such "educated" people are much easier to manipulated than the illiterate ones.
An illiterate person knows they are illiterate - there's no way to hide that fact from themselves. They know there are places they must tread carefully for their knowledge has obvious limits. A mal-educated person thinks they know all the answers, and learned The Truth, and thus hold the keys to the universe. Moreover, they feel a moral duty to lord over lesser creatures and guide them to The Truth, for their own benefit. This is an ideal human brick for building the totalitarian barracks.
You spend 10 years telling John some stuff every day for hours and Jane is someone you just met.
Which one is easier to lie to?
Sounds to me like it completely depends on a lot of different things, but if you know what lie you want to tell ahead of time: obviously John is easier to lie to.
John might be 10 years into your lies, but he also might have caught on. You use different lies with Jane, who might not know better, and she listens wholeheartedly and with good faith.
If John is an adult and Jane isn't, Jane is easier even with the age difference. This is simply because of lack of knowledge and experience.
If one has more access to the outside world than the other, they are less likely to believe your lies.
If John knows you have mental health problems that causes you to lie and Jane doesn't, Jane is easier to lie to.
Maybe John is more suspicious of people and the world. Maybe John just shuts up to appease you, like folks that avoid talking politics with their families simply don't want to deal with things.
Are you someone younger? DO you have authority over them?
There are so many things that affect whether or not you can lie to someone.
You spend 10 years telling John and Jane some stuff every day for hours. John also gets told stuff for hours by a third party while Jane gets all information from you. Which one is easier to lie to?
School adds a third party so that the child isn't reliant on things taught by their parents.
Usually psychopaths and sociopaths are always moving so people don't know who they are and they can fool them easily.
What you are saying is if someone does trust you, you can lie to her easier, which is true, but then you will loose the trust and bond that took a long time to get.
None of the German Empire, Weimar Republic or Russian Empire were totalitarian states. If education is protective against indoctrination the effect is at best weak. A lively marketplace of ideas is no guard against organized thugs if the liberals are not willing to defend liberalism. Critical thinking is a red herring.
Weimar Republic also had highly militarized civil service, comited to military values rather then to democracy.
Russian Empire was dictatorship to large extend. Not as much as communism, but it was not democracy with political freedoms. The little reforms they had were basically too little too late. There were little of such a thing as citizen right in most places. Peasants also had huge illiteracy rates.
Even on this website, merely questioning the validity of some of the aspects of the politically correct zeitgeist will get your post flagged and hidden from public consumption.
Which is an exact mirror of the professional world that most people will face later. School system is here to push a national narrative on people (which is not a bad point per se, as it builds cohesion), and prepare them to be mindless drone in a corporate environment. In short it serves society needs, not individuals.
You call it indoctrination. Someone else might equally call it social cohesion.
In Russia, peasants were largely illiterate. As in, unable to read and write. The revolution did came from people who were able to read and write, obviously, it is kinda hard to coordinate without that. For that matter, monarchy was kept by educated people too, simply because you cant keep bureaucracy without writing.
But it was not some kind of great education they would have. And their propensity for violence had more to do with how violent Russia was even before then with anything education.
The did much more than coordination. The intelligentsia was basically 100% responsible for the revolution in every aspect, starting from conceptualization (peasants would never come up with the idea of trying to apply Marxism to the real world and wouldn't even be able to imagine world other than the one in which tzar rules over them) through managing implementation to the post-revolution power capture. Peasants were merely ants, necessary for revolutionaries' plans to install themselves as new rulers of Russia (obviously, some of them had more lofty goals, but as usual the worst scoundrels quickly took over and the idealists were disposed of).
The monarchy, the military, the civil service, they were all "intelligentsia" too. "Liberal bourgeoisie" and capitalists were "intelligentsia" too. There were freaking 5 armies in Russia civil war. All 5 were led by people able to read and write. You all make it sound as if "intelligentsia" were uniformly Leninist or something. They were not, that is just the army that won. And I would be even super surprised if communists were the most educated of them all.
Yet also, the Russia monarchy was not exactly stable democratic functioning place until Lenin started revolution by the end of WWI out of nowhere.
I honestly hate when people who are supposedly against communist somehow adopt communist framing in completely absurd ways, down to blaming "intelligentsia" for whatever they perceive bad and down to attributing whole of Russian civil war to communists. I would really like to see someone use the term intelligentsia for like American journalist, teachers, or programmers. Lets all assume that all college educated people in American hold the same opinions. It is that stupid term.
But: that probably won't work for everyone. Furthermore the question remains how to do that when both parents have to work to make ends meet? Maybe even multiple jobs, as it is common for many nowadays? Also one can't overgeneralize this, as there are good teachers and schools, and bad ones. No matter what country or system or schooltype.
As always: it depends...
I was homeschooled but agree that it isn't for everyone, mainly because not everyone has the resources. It decidedly requires a middle class lifestyle. Also, parents need to have something of their life together beyond just financial resources.
But people overestimate the competence required of a parent to teach. Probably the biggest thing I learned was learning how to learn, and in particular, doing that on my own. So reading the textbook in college was hardly a shock. If my parents didn't understand a subject, they could learn it with me, or find the resources I needed (including community college, online courses).
Unschooling, however, I am not too sympathetic to. You need some structure.
For most kids you probably need some structure. For some, unschooling certainly works well; for others it's another term for "school dropout". I personally was both homeschooled and unschooled, for different topics, and a high % of the smartest people I know were unschooled.
I really struggled to learn to read and write, even by grade five. So my parents took me out and my mom worked with me one-on-one intensively to learn phonics, which finally fixed that problem. Meanwhile, prior to that the biggest challenge I had in learning programming on my own is that I struggled to actually read the books I had on it. I think that unschooling taught me how to learn on my own, in a way that was very beneficial later in life.
Yet again, I'd say based on my experience taking relatively high-level, proof-based, math classes in university many years later, that for me the structured experience of university math worked much better than trying to learn those subjects on my own (which I had also tried!). Yet, for high school math, there hadn't been much difference (I did attend highschool).
Learning isn't one-size-fits-all.
Not everyone can do homeschooling, not everyone who can, will do it well. Many kids are not able to handle it either. But it can lead to much better outcomes. Like most things, general advice doesn't apply to everyone.
That's an interesting use of "purpose". That isn't what our system was specifically designed for (Prussian system adopted by the US) by the people who designed it.
They wrote heavily about how well their new education system instilled obedience and created good soldiers and workers. They were very proud of these good outcomes.
It's also not the actual measured outcomes of our current system. Hell, "critical thinking" is explicitly excluded from the curriculum by a chunk of the US.
The use of "purpose" to mean "thing we want it to be" isn't a critical type of thinking.
https://www.nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/#:~:te....
Unless they are using a diff. metric for education journals or they are relatively new, I would not consider this a reliable report
1. https://www.resurchify.com/all_ranking_details_2.php?id=7414
2. https://academic-accelerator.com/Impact-Factor-IF/Peabody-Jo....
3. https://www.scijournal.org/articles/good-impact-factor#:~:te....
This is a better study: https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S010...
Being homeschooled and unschooled myself, I got to see that first hand in other families. But I don't think it actually means that homeschooling/unschooling is universally better: plenty of people try it, find it doesn't work for them, and quit.
My best guess is it increases the variance of results more than the average, with some kids doing very well on it, and some very poorly. While that's good for society, it doesn't mean one can entirely replace the other.
This seems like it would lend itself to selection bias - only people for whom homeschooling is a good fit continue to pursue it.
Homeschooling/unschooling very likely works well for some (I think it worked well for me). But that doesn't mean it would work well on average.
> Qaqish (2007), on the other hand, examined the ACT math scores of college-bound students and found, while controlling for background variables, that the conventionally schooled performed slightly better than the home educated.
I'd say the plague of fake news shows that the current crop of educated population is not capable of critical thinking.
School's greatest purpose is putting kids in a room with a couple dozen other kids that they may disagree with or even hate, and forcing them to learn how to deal with their existence.
So now school's purpose is no longer critical thinking but just socialisation with all social strata.
Yes? We talked about the news and recent events in class around that time. It wasn't anything profound, but our classes definitely talked about it. This was also in the years following 9/11, so it was an unavoidable topic. We even had mock elections where we'd "vote" for real, current politicians.
If I'd only heard about the news and world happenings from home, I'd have a very different and far narrower view of things.
And it's not just politics. No clue why you assumed that. Schools put you in a room with kids from different backgrounds, different interests, different likes and dislikes. I see a lot of praise about homeschooling on HN, but the ones I've encountered (including cousins in my own family) mostly come from very isolated religious families seeking to shield their kids from the outside world. Maybe it's different for very wealthy people growing up in the valley or with other great resources provided to them, but most of the homeschooled people I've been around have had trouble acclimating to a world that isn't sanitized for their existence.
I can even remember a teacher having us write a letter asking that a government facility in our region not be closed down because it would affect people in our class. I was probably in 3rd or 4th grade at the time. In 5th grade we had to write letters to soldiers fighting in the Gulf War - something that I have very mixed feelings about today because I do feel that supporting troops fighting in a war overseas is a highly political act.
But is it? There are many schools that fail spectacularly at the task, to the point of graduating people who are functionally illiterate. Maybe school alone is not enough for that.
> Not all parents are good teachers.
True. Unfortunately, even more teachers aren't good teachers. Out of all teachers I had, I have maybe one really great teacher I could name and two or three decent ones. The rest were nearly useless at best, and actively harmful at worst. And there were much more of those than good ones. Fortunately, school is not the only place one can find good teachers...
> School's purpose is not to teach obedience
Are you sure? Because everything I've heard about schools suggests it is. At least if we're talking about standard government-issue school, not special fancy educational project or independent private establishment.
> It is there to teach us critical thinking
Maybe in theory. In practice maybe 1% of teachers could deal with actual critical thinking from the students, and even less would like to. And most "critical thinking" education I've encountered was "question those other authorities in a way we prescribe to you as your only and true authority which you don't dare to question".
> An educated population is also less prone to fall into totalitarianism
Given the absolutely disastrous state of the American academia, I don't think this argument holds any water. Yes, Cultural Revolution despised educated people. But turns out there's more than one way to indoctrination and totalitarian thought control. And being educated in never letting a dissenting opinion to be heard is no better than being not educated at all, at least when we talk about preventing totalitarianism.
NO ITS NOT! This is a lie. There were reports in 1960's when the congress asked for an experiment to different ways of teaching. The children taught in a 1 to 1 way performed enormously better compared to the rest. And one of the worst ways was to teach is in mass. When the results came, they buried the report after it wasn't in their favor.
Schools are only good for above average intelligence people. If you want no one to be left behind then you should teach those who're slightly disadvantaged in a dedicated manner in 1 to 1 classes.
Education is of great importance to me, if this shift is a great alternative, I would not ignore the paradigm.
Note: I won't deny the effectiveness of 1-1 teaching (ex: private tutoring).
One on one tutoring is already extremely widely employed, and plenty of platforms have popped up to help it effectively scale. Pretty much the only people who don't use it are those who can't afford it, a problem regular schooling would also face if not publicly paid for. It takes very little imagination to picture a system where people get vouchers to spend on tutoring services and a simple method for large numbers of people to qualify as tutors eligible to accept these vouchers.
1) 1-on-1 tutoring happens online. I would like evidence that this is effective, given the challenges this pandemic has put in evidence. Particularly, note that this is supposed to be aimed at all children, not just particularly motivated or interested ones that will sit quietly learning at their computer.
2) 1-on-1 tutoring does not happen online. In which case you either have to add the cost of getting the kids to the tutor (if the tutor stays put, maximizing their throughput) or getting the tutor to the kids (reducing their throughput and their student count).
Beyond that, modern schooling is an entire system that addresses many many problems in society including:
- Daycare for kids ages 5-18
- Logistics of getting kids to and from school (in the US)
- Logistics of providing shared facilities for things like experimental science classes .
- Logistics of providing shared access to higher level computing facilities than individual poor students can afford.
- For a nontrivial number of students, access to food during the day.
- Many more, because I am not an expert and I literally came up with this list off the top of my head.
Are these problems unsurmountable? Do they all need to be solved by the educational system? Maybe not. But imperfectly as it solves them, it does address them for now. You can't throw out a significant part of the public service provided by public education and claim you successfully replaced it.
We already transport students and people already commute to work. The money you currently pay to stick kids in your school district on a bus can be used to facilitate transportation for tutoring. Some tutoring services may provide a central location while others may bring the tutor to you, and you pick the one that works best for your family.
As for your other points:
Dedicated daycare facilities can be more efficiently set up if that is their only objective. Effectively teaching hundreds of students at the same time is impossible, so you need dozens of teachers and classrooms. But if your only concern is making sure they don't kill eachother, you can easily throw a few hundred kids in a gym or a plsyground and tell them to have fun with only a small handful of moderators - which is exactly what most schools do during recess. A good portion of the current school population probably doesn't even need such services (if your 18 year old needs to be babysat, they're going to have a very rough time at 19).
School creates the logistical problem of getting kids to and from school. Again, the bus you're already paying for can take people to a school or a shared learning center or a library or a tutor's office.
The money you are paying to maintain the school science lab can also be spent to support a community science lab. This building can be much smaller, less staffed, and more optimally configured than a full highschool
The money you spend to support a school computer lab can also be spent to support a community computer lab. In general this already exists at most public libraries. The same argument as for the science lab applies here.
The money you spend to support school lunches can also be spent on food programs.
When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail, but a hammer is not the right tool for many jobs. Likewise when all you have is a school, every societal need related to children starts to look like a school problem, but that does not mean school actually solves those problems in an efficient way. It really does not take any great mental leaps to imagine services dedicated to solving individual problems being more efficient than something that was never originally intended to solve that problem.
https://www.nifdi.org/what-is-di/di-vs-di.html https://www.nifdi.org/research/history-of-di-research/projec...
While it did show that, that research was not done until the 80’s.
https://www.nifdi.org/what-is-di/di-vs-di.html
Research is available there if you click the "Research" tab. The main research seems to be Project Follow Through:
https://www.nifdi.org/research/history-of-di-research/projec...
I believe the No Child Left Behind Act changed that.
How we change this, I don't know.
Having worked in public education for 15+ years I wish it were true that the goal is to teacher critical thinking. Sadly from my experience it is more about teaching "compliance". Critical Thinking seems to be pushed more for undergrad + schooling these days.
Survival bias fills this thread with people for whom homeschooling worked. Consider that those didn't experience success might be under-represented in the dialogue you consume.
I'm not gonna blindly advocate for home schooling but I think anyone who cares enough about their kids' education to look into options other than public school probably also cares enough to pull it off if it's the option they wind up choosing.
>School is probably the best public invention to systematically distribute knowledge to the masses. Some like to point out "dropouts", "self-taught" geniuses or the "lucky few" as models instead of exceptions to the rule.
The further your kids are from the mean student the crappier the job the public school situation will do. It's like the difference between registering a new car at the DMV and bringing in a pile of papers to prove chain of custody on some junk that's only able to be street legal through some arcane technicality. The first transaction is painless. The latter is not. When you ask the system to do something it's well practiced at doing you get shit service.
>School's purpose is not to teach obedience or even getting a job. It is there to teach us critical thinking, and consequently, how to be a good citizen.
And if you think it's successful at that for any reasonable definition of "success" then you're clearly living in a different 2020 than I am.
Look through history, even before widespread government funded schooling everything was just as crap as it is today. You had just as many popuist leaders, pants on head retarded popular culture movements, witch hunts, all the same crap we have today. The only thing that's changed is that as society have become more advanced and richer we've become more able to avoid pain and violence.
Also, school is very much about obedience to an arbitrary system. They don't overtly state it but it's pretty damn obvious if you look at how the carrots and sticks are set up.
>An educated population is also less prone to fall into totalitarianism. Ex: Nazi Germany and Mao's China burned books and persecuted the educated (1984 style).
Sure. But it's pure lunacy to conflate what's good for society with what's good for any specific kid(s). There's definitely a lot of overlap but there's also a lot of non-overlap.
Frankly, this sounds absurd. Having just been through this educational enlightenment I can tell you that's definitely not what schools do. Higher education like a bachelor's or master, sure. Definitely, even. But high school? Not at all.
It's a lesson in rote memorisation of the _true truth_ which we know is true because _the teacher said it_. It is the opposite of critical thinking. And if I were a totalitarian vying for my own state I'd leave the high school system exactly as is, perhaps change the history books a bit.
Who would be letting a child go astray in a home education environment? Why would a reasonable parent in #3 not conclude that education can be provided via multiple potentially sources, including themselves and a good curriculum?
Why would you not say homeschooling disseminates knowledge, teaches critical thinking and aids democracy?
Your aims are excellent here.
Several of my cousins' families.
Also, the idea of telling someone to homeschool, in a conversation about liberal arts and attitudes that’s mostly questions so far, is a good reminder that a coercive mindset isn’t easily set aside. Would ask you to consider how your education laid the ground for that.
I went to a truly terrible rural public school and I see many areas where that has held me back. Success was something to be ashamed of there. Loserthink was king.
For myself, maybe a darker outcome. I was struggling with peer pressure and getting into trouble. The family that owned our house before lost their daughter to overdose. She went to my school. I wonder sometimes how my life could have been had things been slightly different and we hadn't changed to homeschooling (after grade 6 for me, 3 for my brother.)
"The considerable majority of [the subjects: young people with 160+ IQs in Australia] who have [skipped 2 or more grades in K-12] report high degrees of life satisfaction, have taken research degrees at leading universities, have professional careers, and report facilitative social and love relationships. Young people of equal abilities who accelerated by only 1 year or who have not been permitted acceleration have tended to enter less academically rigorous college courses, report lower levels of life satisfaction, and in many cases, experience significant difficulties with socialization. Several did not graduate from college or high school." https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ746290.pdf
I don't know if you're at the 160+ level, but SAT scores are something of a proxy for IQ, and the severity of the social and academic frustration due to mismatch with age-peers can be judged directly.
I hated high-school, but I took classes at the local community college every night, my high school accepted the credits, and I graduated high school a year-early with transferrable college credits.
My night-school experience gave me an opportunity to push my brain as far as I wanted, and it showed me what the 'real world' was like since my classmates were in their thirties, as opposed to the 'high-school world,' or whatever my eccentric parents would have cooked up.
Were you home schooled by your mother or your father? And whoever was home schooling you, were they working either part time or full time? I am interested in homeschooling as well.
The part that popular authors usually want to avoid is making it easy to go from the pen name to the IRL name if you don't have some specific guess or anything. Right now I don't think going in that is particularly easy. If the grandparent however has said the name here it would almost certainly have made it easier to get from the pen name to the IRL name.
The public schools I went to all had a gifted program in various forms, which most years was just one hour a week and taught topics that should have been available to every student in the school. Amazingly, the teacher showed us the structure of a URL in around 1994 when I was in first grade.
This has been touched upon elsewhere by other commenters. But to at least ask you personally, would you concede that if you were doing well on tests despite the absence of the kind of cramming / teaching-to-the-test that the average schooled student receives, you could have done any kind of education, and in many ways, there is nothing special at all about homeschooling? Or that if your structure re-enacts this teaching, but it's a lot less time than the average student, you definitely have a natural aptitude for test taking?
Are tests the only way we can robustly evaluate a kid's education, until they are 18? If so, will sports matter if you're getting bad test scores? What does?
Here's the crazier conclusion. That people finger parental income or cultural values as the biggest factors of education outcomes, and in reality test performance is mostly genetic. It might as well be, from a policy perspective, randomly assigned - God rolls a 100 sided dice when you're born, and if it's a 1 or a 2 all standardized tests are easy for you. If you roll the other 98 numbers, the best thing is to cram.
We don't need alternatives to traditional schooling. We need a way of evaluating kids that rewards genuine learning. Kids who are learning should be scoring poorly sometimes, and that's the exact opposite of how children are evaluated, and poor scores are the exact opposite of what most parents of high achievers want.
Earnest parents are really seeking true learning. On the flip side, parents who send their kids to cram school or kvetch about college admissions not being fair because colleges consider factors other than totally and utterly gameable, zero-learning standardized tests - they are the antagonists. They are ruining our education system, they make school look the way it does, they are seeking a completely worthless advantage for their children (high test scores in the absence of valuable learning via cram school) for some cynically, utterly selfish devotion to values like making money and buying expensive things. Values so primitive and debasing that human cultures around the world have refined, multi-thousand-year-old refutations of materialism - opposition to materialism (asceticism) may be the most mature philosophy of all of history, at least as dominant as family values and theism. And then, to rationalize all of this, they find the least privileged and disadvantaged families and blame them instead! All the while pretending that there's some sort of equivalence of shittiness in their situations, because of some fucking number like income, between their families and the Other. It's complete and total bullshit.
Some changes to the school system can help everyone live happier lives and learn more, like different children spending longer (or shorter) times in class.
But really, we have to throw out tests. Or invent a test so sophisticated that it avoids being gamed by cramming.
That's the point of the broader education system, and that's all that really matters.
Kids who are curious will follow some weird path and do all kinds of cool shit, kids with money will follow some orchestrated path that makes their parents happy, and most kids will do some variant of a contrived path at a community college and/or state school.
So, who cares? None of it matters. It's 2020. There's no card catalog. There's no ENIAC in the basement that some dweeb wearing a pocket-protector gatekeeps. Feynman doesn't have to sign off on your lab time. HOPE is on DVD, K&R is free on PDF, some crazy guys in the bay are selling DIY CRISPR kits, 3D printers are $200, FPV drone racing is affordable, and Steam sales are so cheap it makes my head spin (they remade both RE1 and Half Life!!!). They sell 2600 at Barnes and Noble for god's sake.
You can buy Knuth on Amazon, Erickson is available on NoStarch, and Xorpd's Udemy course is like $20 bucks. If you're a curious person, that will keep you pretty busy until you build Ben Eater's 8-bit computer, and work your way through building Dave Gingery's entire machine shop, and finish the Coursera Bioinformatics specialization. Then you can discover trad climbing and spend a sabbatical at Yosemite Camp 4 planning how you're gonna free The Nose on El Cap. That will give you plenty of time to ponder your first FreeBSD device driver, which will give you technical skills to construct your first botnet that you sell to the FSB for enough to film your first music video at your crib in Quetzaltenango. If you're smart and curious, you're busy no matter what bullshit job you have to do or what bullshit tests you have to take.
Tests, no tests, who cares? The hackers hack, the lanyard guys swipe in at FAANG, the boring people stress about their tests, and the weirdos make a living playing online poker from a palapa in Thailand.
The world turns.
However I think the biggest benefits of homeschooling are being ale to get customized 1 on 1 attention, and learning how to learn. That is the meta skill of being self driven, self disciplined in acquiring new skills. A lot of people that go through the public school system seem afraid of that or unable to do that. They were the people most likely to wash out of college in the first year, because they couldn't deal with the relative lack of structure compared to high school.
If it's the same author I found based on a cursory search from your profile, then "famous" is a bit of a stretch.
> Where I think it hurt was we didn't do any group social activities and lived in remote places
I got a similar feeling reading about Chris Paolini. Homeschooled, raised in a remote place. Fed a lot of his early life experiences, particularly travel, into his novels but felt alienated from other kids.
That's a bit rude. I did the same cursory search and realized my friends and I are big fans. Just because you don't recognize the name doesn't mean others don't.
Makes me very happy you celebrate his success so openly. In my time in the industry, I saw a lot of fiction authors dismissed by their family/friends who worked in non-creative industries. Thanks for being one of the awesome relatives. :)
Perhaps I was the one stretching with my "cursory search", because I missed the pseudonym. A million sales is certainly "famous" from any reasonable standpoint.
Basically, I was allowed to skip schoolwork, as long as I was doing something productive.
I hated schoolwork, so I started spending all my spare time tinkering with stuff on the computer. I wasn't allowed to play video games (since they aren't productive), but I was allowed to BUILD video games. I was also allowed to build web sites and do programming.
By the age of 13, I was doing contract web development work, and by the age of 16, I was employed full time at a local web development company.
My parents wouldn't let me get a drivers license and car until I had at least passed the GED, so I spent a couple of months cramming for it by studying a 2 inch thick book about how to pass the GED. I passed it without too much trouble (I think I got a 98% in math, if I remember correctly).
My career has developed across multiple companies over the last 20 years, and I'm currently making around $150K a year as a software engineer. I never did go to college.
They took "unschooling" even further with my younger brother. He didn't even learn how to read until he was around 10. He ended up having to cram for his GED to get a drivers license, too. He ultimately ended up getting a job as a waiter, then as bank teller, then put himself through college and got a degree. He now owns a house worth around $400K and has a career as a software engineer at the banking company that initially hired him as a teller.
TL;DR: "Unschooling" worked for my family because they combined it with at least a base of traditional education.
> He didn't even learn how to read until he was around 10.
to me, is fucking terrifying.
All of the people I know who did better on their own than in a classroom were able to do so because they could gobble up half a library in a weekend. I think you need to be able to read abnormally well for this unschooling concept to work as intended, and so good reading skills is one of the few things that I absolutely would not compromise on.
Why? It takes 40 contact hours to teach a nine year old to read, according to John Taylor Gatto. You can teach all of primary school Math in the same time to a 12 year old. What’s the point of doing it earlier? There are little or no compounding gains from doing so. Countries that start teaching reading at 4 don’t do better than those that wait until 7. See France versus Germany or Finland.
The entire point of the zone of proximal development is that you can spend weeks teaching something to a six year old that a nine year old will pick up in an afternoon because they’re just more developed.
Remove a screen and a kid can have crazy skills.
Screens are really the opium of the people.
The non-intuitive thing about basic reading and math skills is this:
If you delay the learning, you learn it much more quickly.
So the (ordinary, with no developmental issues) kid who doesn't read until 10, can exceed his or her peers in just a couple years.
The very unfortunate corollary, however, is this:
The kid with developmental issues might go undiagnosed for a longer time than necessary, with long-lasting repercussions and follow-on effects. It's even possible to reinforce a mild issue and turn it into a larger one.
This then becomes a classical optimization problem. Optimize for the common case for broad benefit, or optimize for the rare case with significant negative effects. There is no right answer for everyone.
Is there any source for this?
It appears there's evidence that this is true in general[1] (though the author suggests they could go even faster if they updated their methods further)
I also remember reading in a Tony Buzan book his speculation that learning to read too early interfered with the, what he claims, is the natural eidetic memory potential in children. I don't have any of his books here to find the reference, unfortunately. Perhaps there's something in it, perhaps not.
[1] https://theconversation.com/steiner-schools-should-adopt-mod...
Immersion learning is used and studied mostly for foreign languages but I wonder about how effective it proves in general for small children given vs trying to teach them actively and leaving them to observe it. It may be a fringe case technique when directly teaching them is ironically less effective or even more effective when it does work but unreliable.
Just providing another perspective.
Basically give kids time for unstructured learning using the hours after school/after homework study time that are currently effectively used up toiling at zero sum, super structured activities strictly aimed at getting into college.
Would you be able to sustain enough interest to really delve into something when you're that tired out?
Structured activities still work, because the motivation is largely external. I reserve judgement as to how good that is for the kids doing them, but I will agree that it's a workable setup.
IMHO, you can't go halfway. Either you fill up their time with supposedly educational/socializing opportunities, or you give them enough time and space to explore based on intrinsic motivation. With your "unafterschooling", your kids will naturally use it for playtime or zombie screen time. One, or possibly both, of those is likely to be the best possible use of that time, so that's ok; just don't expect them to pick up new skills when you've stacked the odds against it.
(Yes, I'm biased. I'm homeschooling -- not unschooling -- my kids, and there was a major readjustment period to get free of the "school attitude" before things started to click. We couldn't have done that when school was still in their headspace.)
I think the key is to not have it get into a 7 hours of structured school plus 4 hours of structured after school extracurriculars (i.e. sports, piano or any other competitive zero sum activities etc.) where an 'adult' is telling what activities to complete. Basically in such a schedule in no part of the day has the child done any activity where they thought for themselves.
Would much rather give them time in their remaining 4 hours to provide some structure on how to research an area/project for focus and create something self directed.
So true. There's nothing about the school start time that makes sense other than enabling parents to go to work afterwards.
Though I feel the same about my morning standup as a 38 year old...
Personally I could have used more socialization, but there is plenty of time after school to learn.
Not sure how much of this are special challenges specific to remote learning and Zoom and how much of it is just that the curriculum has to be tailored towards the slowest learners.
If anything, I would say the focus on unschooling when it comes to early childhood should be read early and read often. Interestingly, this seems to play into the larger controversy of intensive phonics instruction vs. the less structured "whole language approach."
> to me, is fucking terrifying.
I could barely read at age 10, and I was in public school! That's why my parents took me out and homeschooled me. Which fixed the problem in a few months with intensive one-on-one phonics from my mom that the school system just wasn't going to do.
She actually had already started learning some reading at 4 when she was in preschool. It was mostly just sounding out letters but at that point kids can start to sound out simple words too. Preschool is elective though so plenty of kids won’t start that young.
For what it's worth I didnt learn to read until I was 9 and by 11 had a college age reading level.
I think some of the later learners in reading (who were not disabled, or at least not traditionally disabled) might also have some other correlations.
> All of the people I know who did better on their own
> than in a classroom were able to do so because they
> could gobble up half a library in a weekend.
TLDR - just because someone can read, doesn't mean they will, and my experience is that they won't.
My gf works in inside technical sales for an industrial instruments rep/distributor, and therefore a large part of her job is passing information between customers and manufacturers while trying to keep both happy and process orders. On a good day, she probably is forced to send the same requests for information at least two or three times on average before finally getting an answer. People just refuse to read even extremely short emails asking for straightforward information like shipping addresses which simply must be provided to proceed with the order. I wouldn't last a month doing her job without losing my damn mind.
Here is a screen grab of a typical email. https://imgur.com/5d36jpq
The first questions I get are "when is first practice".
Both require literacy, but one of these things is fun, while the other is a chore.
Perhaps they are unrelated. perhaps I drew a wrong conclusion. But perhaps they aren't hurried, they are just lazy.
As others have mentioned, you also have to consider how few career paths offer the kind of "no formal training" entry bar that programming does. What if your brother had hated computers and realized at age 22 that he wanted to be a doctor? He'd be years behind his peers.
An honest comparison can't be made unless he gives up some details of what he's made throughout his life, and his geographic location for fair salary comparisons.
But... from a glance his outcome blows most college grads out of the water. Even compared to comp sci grads with good outcomes.
He was earning income at age 13 and full time income at age 16. The traditional school/college route will have you start work at maybe age 23. With debt.
For most geographic areas in the US, 150k is a serious salary, the apex. It would be hard to increase with paper/certs/degrees. Geography change may be the only reliable way to bump it, but then you'd have to subtract the increased housing costs (million dollar shacks) to compare.
This person is clearly successful, but the question is whether their unique schooling experience was causal to their success, and we honestly have no idea. This person may have been equally, or maybe even more successful had they did typical schooling and college. Or maybe not. We also don't know if this person's experience translates to other children—does everyone benefit? Or are there hundreds of less successful unschooled children for every one success?
Consider carefully and closely what those social aspects are. Check that your perception matches reality. For example, in the classroom, 90+% of the time students are supposed to be quiet, or to interact with the teacher (usually answering a question—in front of, but not with, the other students). Most of the social part of school is interacting with friends at recess and lunch, and sports and non-class activities.
Furthermore, the parts of school that are social are not necessarily good: for some people, they consist of being rejected or even bullied, and making them suffer that for years may lead to socially avoidant habits, anxiety, or other long-term issues.
As eloff suggests, sports and other activities are a good way to get good socialization. Since the activity is voluntary, all the kids can be expected to share at least one interest with your kid. Also, if your kid meets some people he likes, then what are called "play dates" (at young ages) or "hanging out" (at older ages) can lead to deep, long-term friendships.
I left high school at the end of tenth grade, but continued going to the math club and attending an after-school math contest class, and hanging around in the math department's common room with others who had a free period before that class. The school was happy to allow it because I was good at the contests, and it made the school look better to let me participate. I got about as much socialization from that as I did when actually attending school, and I was happy with that.
Most definitely - however it's also worth bearing in mind that if you happen to fall into a more traditional life path afterwards, those social elements will rear their heads again.
The sink or swim mentality of school social interactions sadly mimics quite a lot of interactions post school as well. In an ideal world my shitty experience at school wouldn't have been relevant as an adult, but it has actually helped navigate quite a number of toxic situations.
As sad a world as it is, I'm (somewhat perversely) glad I was able to learn how to cope with those as a teen.
It's very common for people who admit that school sucked, to then defend it by saying "it taught me to deal with it". I say, if you really wanted to teach that thing, you could probably come up with something way more safe, time-efficient, and pleasant. I mean, how many weeks would it take for someone to teach a course on "Common personality problems and sources of conflict in the workplace", or something, that would cover 80% of what you learned plus some things you didn't experience? Most of the time, when people claim school is good for a particular thing, you can quickly see that it's nowhere near optimized for that thing.
Lookup two sigma problem. Kids with a 1 on 1 tutor do two standard deviations better than school. That's an insane advantage if you can find a way to make it work.
Certainly social contact and learning is something you want to encourage, but I would not let that hold you back from homeschooling your son if you feel it's working very well. It's complicated to do in the current situation, but playdates, sports, field trips with other homeschool kids, etc. go a long way. There are likely also co-op classes where your kid can meet other kids.
I'm still friends with dozens of kids I was homeschooled with. Most have had very good outcomes. I don't feel that the few who haven't would have done much, if any, better in a traditional school environment, but that's an educated guess.
Biggest boogeyman ever.
Just make sure he has a few kids he can maitain contact with an be sociable in clubs or in the neighborhood
All the "social aspects" you get from school is basically a bunch of kids you have no controll over, having a disproportionate effect on the moral and emotional growth, or stunting, of your child. And then add all the trauma burntout teachers can generate...
There were 80 kids in my home school group that were in my grade, maybe half skipped a year when they went to school. That's a small sample size, but not that surprising as most home school parents highly value education.
“the most recent studies showing heritability for IQ as high as 80%.”
This isn’t true. Every psychological trait has a large heritable component. The lowest value I’ve ever seen for heritability of intelligence is on the order of 0.6 and 0.8 is just as common.
> Genetic Influence on Human Psychological Traits
> There is now a large body of evidence that supports the conclusion that individual differences in most, if not all, reliably measured psychological traits, normal and abnormal, are substantively influenced by genetic factors. This fact has important implications for research and theory building in psychology, as evidence of genetic influence unleashes a cascade of questions regarding the sources of variance in such traits. A brief list of those questions is provided, and representative findings regarding genetic and environmental influences are presented for the domains of personality, intelligence, psycho- logical interests, psychiatric illnesses, and social attitudes. These findings are consistent with those reported for the traits of other species and for many human physical traits, suggesting that they may represent a general biological phenomenon.
...
> own positive correlation between tests of mental ability, the evidentiary base for the general intelligence factor. This value is typically about .30. The genetic correlation be- tween such tests is, however, much higher, typically closer to .80.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.397...
> Heritability is a technical measure of how much of the variance in a quantitative trait (such as IQ) is associated with genetic differences, in a population with a certain distribution of genotypes and environments. Under some very strong simplifying assumptions, quantitative geneticists use it to calculate the changes to be expected from artificial or natural selection in a statistically steady environment. It says nothing about how much the over-all level of the trait is under genetic control, and it says nothing about how much the trait can change under environmental interventions.
Until then, whether this is really useful or not, I want to mention that time and again my experience in academia is that topics like these where we really depend on the judgement of the investigators a lot need to be carefully evaluated. Academics have a tendency to over exaggerate significant beliefs from highly questionable data points from very few studies. I'll revert back after going through the literature best I can.
Do you feel you would have a different option of "unschooling" if you had tried to be successful in a different career path?
I used to be a math teacher, and when a student failed the final exam, I'd spend a few hours one on one, then they could take another exam. The students that pissed around all term and bombed the first attempt often quickly picked up most of it in the 1-1 sessions and passed the 2nd attempt. I jokingly suggested to my boss that maybe we should scrap classes and just divide up my hours on 1-1 sessions with every student for greater efficiency.
If done right, that could be one of the best and biggest revolutions in education. It would be amazing if there was a whole school/system doing it.
I honestly can't say I've ever met (or even heard about) anyone with such a similar story -- care to chat sometime?
If you mean for entry level service level stuff, like high schoolers would take, I can't speak to it (I couldn't really find anything when I looked, but I think that was attributable to the general difficulty of finding a first job. No one asked me what high school I was attending/had attended), but for post-college, no one ever asked me about high school.
As to getting into college, I had to take the SATs, same as everyone. I did better than most. I started at community college (which I believe everyone should do, both because financially it makes sense, and because it helps acclimate you to the realities involved. For home/unschoolers, having deadlines and having to learn to 'work the system' are both necessary), then went to university. Graduated highest honors.
I read your text and i would think you made it despite being home schooled and not because of it.
I assuming this because i was going to school but lazy and if i could go back, i would do things differently.
You don't even know what you missed and you don't even know where you could be today;
And while it did work for you well, it does sound that your brother struggled more .
Also without you at a normal school some students might be worse off. Not your problem of course, but it is at a societal level.
Your going to be screened out by a liberal arts graduate with a 2:2 in HR
What is much harder now due to tons of people doing those bootcamps.
But the trade schools are finally catching up to demand. The era of 160k dev jobs without very advanced/complementary skills/knowledge are quickly coming to an end.
I disagree with Amanda's statement that you have to have faith in a child's wonder to facilitate their development. I would say the onus is on the parents to provide things to wonder about. This is a hard task, one that my mother worked endlessly on. It was a 50 hour a week job for her to educate us. Even with that though there are still the social downsides. For parents that are considering it, I would still recommend it, but know that you're taking on a significant responsibility and that you'll need to find after school programs for your kids to have a chance to socialize with other kids their age. This can be hard to find, especially in earlier years.
The grind is only harder if you don't have a good book or teacher because the practice you do could potentially be actively harmful (or useless).
Exploring is fun for children and adults. Being exposed to new things is always interesting. The grind is the hard part.
Naturally, something like playing a musical instrument requires grinding (though it's not grinding if you like it!). But I think other than like, the times tables or the periodic table, there's almost nothing in school that inherently requires a grind. It just feels like a grind, because school is often unpleasant.
I think an average, literate adult could learn basically the entire American K-12 history curriculum in a few months of reading. Most of what passes for history in elementary school could be compressed into... what, a hundred pages, maybe? And high school is another thousand pages.
I think math is the same way. It's a 10 year grind to teach reluctant kids what could be taught to an eager adult in a few months.
I think we'd do much better to try to create eager adults, which I think unschooling is really well-suited to.
It's the same principle as learning touch-typing with the keyboard layout visible on a card in your field of view (not the same as looking down at the keyboard, which I agree is a bad habit that slows you down).
Well stated.
I think 'grind' is caused by a disconnect between what the learner is being made to do and what they want to do. Grind can therefore be reduced by providing people with the opportunity to study things that interest them, for instance by offering a broader range of educational 'tracks', or by reformulating lesson plans to make the material more interesting (explaining the real world applications or consequences of the subject matter.)
That's the thing though, even with something you enjoy you will, or should hopefully, hit 'the grind'. That point where it gets hard and you force yourself to keep going even through.the parts you don't enjoy.
School forces you to do this, if you're teaching yourself something, you need to force yourself to do this.
I can't count the number of times i've heard someone say something like
'I tried learning/doing this new thing and it was fun for a bit but it ended up being way harder than I thought.'
And that's usually the point where they've given up or moved on.
But that's usually the point where learning breakthroughs happen and getting through the grind tends to cement those new facts or that new activity better.
That's usually the point where it starts being fun again too, until the next hump to grind through.
It's like an old nintendo game or something. One of those really hard ones that forces you to replay the same thing over and over again just to gain the tiniest bit of progress. Even though the game's probably fun, that's the point where people start throwing controllers and stuff. Yet when you get past those hard sections and make some progress. Suddenly, you feel good and have fun again.
Learning things is very much the same process. Even things you enjoy. The secret is to push yourself through the less fun parts.
Just quickly too, more of an aside, I feel like modern games lack this aspect and i think it's a big part of why many people complain about modern games. They don't stimulate and teach you through failure and repitition, there's usually no consequences, you have no breakthrough 'Aha I can do this now' moments, there's no learning or lessons to be had. Just mindless progression that never really feels like progress.
School often forces you to do a grind, but it's often an endless-treadmill grind, not a over-the-hump grind.
I'm with you that practice is a king but blind struggle ruins passion. I've took salsa lessons for several years, drummed it wrong, have to unlearn bad practices. I've took guitar recently, overcome in a few months what could not in school (good enough instrument and youtube videos).
I was "good," for a time, but pursuit of excellence never met my cost benefit analysis
> It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right?
I'd summarize my answer as "no, it's still a 'grind'." To answer your followup, "yes, it can be even worse if you hate the basic act."
On a meta level: life sucks and involves hardship. There's value in grinding on things you hate. If you've only succeeded at things that you love, your success is quite likely fragile. Resiliency is developed by accepting, and grinding, your way to success at something you hate.
I do. I wish I could play them well.
Wow, I'm happy for you and only a little jealous.
I wish I could play them well, too. The sound and feeling of butchering them is what makes me dislike the experience.
I would argue that Type 2 is desirable but doesn't fit in this framework.
The problem is that this mishandling gives people a bad taste for associated activities, especially STEM subjects, and it's rare for people to subject themselves to what seems like an incredibly boring process when they're not being forced to. As such, most of the competency they may have been forced to gain is lost, along with potential passion.
Even repeating exercises can be fun when you understand the motivation behind it. For example, if you have a real passion for understanding Newtonian physics, the parts of calculus that might be 'rote' when unmotivated and part of a purely rote process can become some of the most enjoyable.
That's likely part of it. I see another reason: I believe schools' incentives make them risk-averse. I think they have a stronger incentive to make one failing student do passably well than to make ten students go from doing well to doing very well.
I agree with everything else you said. I also found academic contests to be a good motivator to teach me to check my work.
Your kid only has a very limited amount of it to spend; trying to make them grind more than that amount will be absolutely counter-productive and reduce grind "efficiency" to zero.
Which is exactly what schools do: they try to cram as much working, studying and focusing in a kid's daily life as they can, long past the point of diminishing returns; because they assume that a kid's attention is infinitely extensible, and they do very little to actually get their interest.
When you can order a kid to get into a room at set times and to look at a set piece of text and to listen to a single person for arbitrary amounts of times, there's very little to stop you from making every single day a grind a calling it a job well done.
The main benefit of homeschooling is that, if a kid isn't engaged by the teaching materials, you can see it immediately because they'll say so and ask to do something else.
This is neither an argument for or against traditional schools (or homeschools or unschooling).
As someone who chose to learn some subjects outside of school (usually years before they would have been taught), I tended to read textbooks my older siblings had used—did this for algebra, physics, and calculus—although I didn't do that many problems from the textbooks. (I also read lots of what might be called popular science books.) The article does say "[The McQueen] parents spurn curriculums, textbooks, tests and grades", but I know some unschoolers, and I suspect if I asked them, I would find that they read several textbooks.
One unschooling mom's website quotes (seemingly with approval) another unschooling mom's email on the subject. Ultimately it seems to be saying that, while textbooks shouldn't be the primary tool, they are a tool that is sometimes appropriate. https://sandradodd.com/school/textbooks
I think one of the things the pandemic exposed is how much time is wasted in class for discipline and "class management". Really, without it the quiet kids can pretty much get the regular curriculum in half the normal time.
I went to a good engineering school for college, but they also require everyone to take 3 years of history, 3 years of english, 2 semesters of a foreign language, a psychology course, ...
If it was left up to me I would not have taken most of those classes, and I suffered through many of them, but I think they were an important part of my education, and I am glad I came out of school knowing more than the engineering that I would have picked for myself.
Certainly, in my own life that has held true. I learned to read when I was a kid because I saw my parents doing it, and engaging in it taught me to love it. A lot of math I learned early on just as I was growing up (I figured out multiplication on my own, for instance). But by the time school started 'teaching' me things, I chafed at it. I hated being told what to learn, hated having to follow the classroom's pace, etc.
The same has held true in my adult life too; given a problem to solve or an interesting thing to explore I'll learn. Even things I -hated- in high school and college (such as foreign languages), I am engaging in learning on my own as an adult because I -want- to.
Given a better environment, most kids will want to learn. The problem is school forces it on kids, without investing in showing the kid why they would want to learn it in the first place (i.e., the reason "when will we ever use this?!" is so stereotypical)
"I think you'll quickly find (etc)" - I think you're thinking about this the wrong way. Who, exactly, are you evaluating? The average adult who grew up in the school system, who learned that 'learning' is all about being told stuff, and who now 'knows enough' to hold down their job and pursue whatever hobbies they have in what little spare time they have? Not sure that's representative of children, or how people grow up under a different system. And even there, you'd be surprised how often those adults still end up looking up information -that is of interest- to them.
I mean, heck, I'm one of those adults - outside of work what I learn is very little, because I don't have the energy. And yet, I still am curious, I still ask questions, I still read things. Certainly, I look for opportunities to learn things as -part- of my work. I am the HN crowd, sure, but I'm also a consummate gamer and waster of time. Heck, I'll even waste my time responding to HN comments. :P
Beyond that, for children, if you're just looking at kids who are already in school...yeah. No kidding. After 5-8 hours in school being 'taught' things, why they heck would someone spend their free time learning things outside of it? It's just like a job. But what about a kid who has hours of free time, and who sees, constantly, that there are people around them who 'know things', and they don't? They'll ask questions. Lots of questions. Encourage that, and you have learning.
I mean, I can't speak to you, the HN crowd at large, or people at large (nor can you), but I can say that given just the spare time the quarantine has given me, my unproductive pursuits very quickly ran dry (not for lack of them), and I've picked up learning a number of new things to fill the time. I don't think that's nearly as uncommon as you might think.
Now, I agree that school tends to squelch natural curiosity and such. I really can't say enough bad things about school.
Still, I can't shake the hypothesis that a decent amount of observational data connected to schooling and unschooling is done by smart people, looking at their social group (likely to also be smart) and at the kids of those in their social group (likely to have inherited smartness). John Holt formed some of his hypotheses teaching at a school with a minimum IQ cutoff (IIRC around 110-120) (researching, I think it was the Shady Hill school, the second one he taught at).
But at the very least, it seems to me that unschooling will work well with smart kids—the smarter, the better—and, furthermore, the smarter the kid is, the worse school will be adapted to them, so it seems pretty clear that, above some intelligence level, unschooling should be placed above school in the list of default recommendations (the specifics of the individual kid and the available schools would, of course, be used to tailor the default into the correct, but I am talking about the default). I don't know what level that should be, but I suspect it's something like 120-130 IQ.
Why is forcing people to read books they don’t care about good enough to warrant the intrusion on their autonomy necessary to get them to do so?
Some things click instantly and others take longer. While I was good at highschool math, matrices never clicked for me until almost 3rd year of university, when a good prof took the efforts to make it 'click'. I never felt like cooking until I began staying alone, gave it an honest (an necessary) try due to monetary requirements, and now it is my main hobby that I can't live without.
I understand that this argument can be use like the great filter, where if you don't like something it hasn't clicked yet, so keep going and it will click. But, for most things, we know 'click' checkpoints. For musical instruments, it tends to be the first song. For programming, it is your first repository. For math, it tends to be your first moment when a group of seemingly unrelated things fall into place to give you a neat derivation or when you find a visualization that works as an analogy 100% of the time.
The first few weeks of a lot of things are straight up miserable. (new Musical instruments and new languages being major examples of it). It is only after you have understood the basics can you start enjoying them.
> The problem is school forces it on kids, without investing in showing the kid why they would want to learn it in the first place
Absolutely. That investment is key to making forced learning work. Much like training wheels, once they can balance the topic on their own, you can stop trying to make it click, and the student will sustain their interest on their own.
> having to follow the classroom's pace
This is incredibly annoying. I remember binging the whole English textbook in the summer before the year started, then impatiently fidgeting or reading fantasy fiction novels under the table because the class felt that it went too slowly.
I've always found that a fascinating difference between University in the USA and Australia.
In Australia I studied Software Engineering (Accredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers). From day one, every single course was strictly "on topic". Maths, Electronics, Programming, Computer theory, compilers, real time programming, Java, C++, Real Time Programming, Digital Electric Design, Data Comms, more Maths, Digital Signal and Image processing, Game Design, Personal Software Process, etc. etc.
In the four years I studied (plus another for a placement in the workforce) I never studied a single moment that wasn't directly Software Engineering. Not a single English or history or anything course.
My knowledge is very deep, but not nearly as broad as someone that took all those other courses.
If both parents have to work a regular day job, there's nobody at home to teach the kids so unschooling is not possible. And if only one parent stays at home, they will also yearn for some free time and push for getting the kids signed up for school.
The only situation where I can imagine the parents being enthusiastic about unschooling is if they are independently wealthy and can afford to spend lots of time with their kids, when other people would have to work. And obviously, plenty of personalized attention from the parents will make the kids learn a lot faster than your typical 1 teacher 30 students class.
Plus, once you assume that all unschooling parents are much wealthier than regular people, it kind of makes sense that they will have very different opinions about life in general, due to their very different experience of it. Regular folks will go to a public playground and complain about the dog shit there. Rich folks will just buy a playground for their backyard and hire a gardener to keep it tidy.
To outsiders, that wealth discrepancy would then look like a religion, because all of the unschoolers have a shared untypical worldview.
I followed the link and the source is... flimsy at best. The lack of numbers here is conspicuous, especially when combined with the fact that most of the respondents were stay-at-home moms, not something super common among the American working-class.
I do not think the rise of this phenomenon is unrelated to the increasing number of affluent, young white parents raising their children in urban cores while remaining afraid of the school system.
It is also quite isolating situation, some women don't like basically working alone all the time or have own aspirations and dreams.
I don't have a strong opinion either way but I was raised with a strong basic well rounded education and personally I feel it helped me. One thing that should be emphasized is that the material should be challenging enough as having it too easy leads to bad work habits.
A couple observations:
- homeschooling is efficient. I only needed a few hours per day of school. - homeschooling is a religion for some people (who end up in articles) but there are lots of cool people. - “homeschooling” is often way less “sitting at home with mother learning math” than people think. We took tons of trips, did cooperative school, took college classes. It’s funny to joke about never leaving the house, but most homeschool kids manage to be quite social. - because it’s unusual, it succeeds with the right kid-parent relationship. My sister and mom made each other miserable and it didn’t work. There are lots of kids for whom homeschooling would be problematic.
I would have been fine in a good private school but my parents weren't rich and couldn't afford the fees. Somehow I convinced my parents to let me educate myself, and at least for me it was successful. I finally had time to teach myself programming, which at the time was not taught in school.
Would I recommend it to others? Kids should try school first and see if they benefit from it. Some kids love school and do very well out of the system. However, if school is failing your kid, they might be better off without it.
My school experience was abysmal and doing things my own way allowed me to actually learn stuff that would end up being useful. I'd not have made it half as far if I had gone the traditional route.
Currently 28 and satisfied with how things have played out so far.
How were you paying rent in Sweden?
Interestingly (to me at least), I had gigabit internet in Umeå and I believe it only cost around 40 USD/m at the time (2011-ish). I didn't get gigabit again until I moved to Las Vegas and I'm currently paying around 3x that amount.
EDIT - Actually I have one big complaint. Trying to learn the language was impossible because every time I would attempt it people would notice I'm not a native speaker and instantly switch to English as if they had been waiting for that moment their entire lives. Lesson: Swedish people are an order of magnitude more considerate than the french folks I've met.
At least the old man got some stories out of it!
I have experienced this (in Paris only, the rest of France seemed chill), and I don't even think my french was that bad at the time.
Making friends, learning multiple perspectives, learning conflict resolution, learning about diversity, making mistakes and dealing with failure, learning to deal with authority[0]. These are all lessons that I personally would attribute to going through a public education.
[0] Just to be clear, dealing with authority isn't the same as blind respect for authority. While school tries to teach you blind respect for authority, every student builds their own relationship with authority, probably in combination with the values they learn at home.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deschooling_Society
L. M. Sacasas on his mailing list and podcast, 'The Convivial Society' recently interviewed one of Ivan's close friends, Gov. Jerry Brown. I've found the mailing list really worthwhile to read, and has surely affected the way I think about technology.
https://theconvivialsociety.substack.com/p/remembering-illic...
Public Employee Unions. Whose first task is not to serve the people whom their members are supposed to work for. Just look at the demands some of these unions put up as required before going back to the classrooms! Some wanted changes to minimum wage, taxation, and more! Nothing related to education because they themselves have nothing to do with education other that there are teachers as their members.
It is well documented how teachers in good standing with the union can get out of schools they don't want to be in meaning if they don't like the neighborhood its too damn bad for the kids there. They can also avoid disciplinary actions and have their records protected from public view and in many districts have their records expunged within only a few years.
There are many great teachers out there but they are stuck in a system government by a political class masquerading as their union. A union which serves local politicians first and parents and students are so far down the list as to not be considered. Hence when it comes to bettering education their first response isn't how to do so but instead how to benefit their financial position
And I wonder whether there is a selection bias in the outcome. Are we looking at a sample of households that are already well off enough to spend dedicated time and resources on homeschooling? Does the family background improve the chances of success significantly? It is hard to separate these tightly coupled factors.
1) I was born in USSR, in what is now Ukraine. I finished 5th grade there, in 1992. I skipped 4th grade, because of system conversion to 11-year system. I went to average public school and was a B (4) student. I moved to the U.S. and went to 6th grade in an average middle school. I coasted through 6th, 7th, and 8th grades on what I learned in my first four years of schooling. Only in high school did I see anything new math-wise.
2) In high school, I developed nearsightedness, I got a computer when I moved to U.S. In 10th grade, I started needing glasses, and I got behind in Physics class because I couldn't see the board. Eventually, my parents found out I needed glasses, and I got glasses. But I was about 3 months behind in Physics. So my dad sat down with me, after a day of work, and tutored me in Physics for probably an hour a night. Within 1-2 weeks, I was fully caught up on 3 months of "Magnet" high school physics.
Whenever you try to scale something up to millions, quality almost inevitably drops significantly.
Imagine the difference between a child getting the full 6 hours a day of public school versus just 2 hours a day of focused tutoring? The difference would be night and day.
And maybe for some people it's OK to never learn those things, and be stuck working at lower skill jobs. That's legitimately an option, there are probably many people who are happy with a simpler life. But for me, I'm glad I went to a proper school and learned everything that I did there, and didn't have the opportunity to have a great career taken from me because I didn't go to a traditional school.
I find the reason for the family in the article to be pretty poor
Fear of school shootings and concern over “the racial bias in schools, the school-to-prison pipeline,” as well as many schools’ stunted curriculum in Black history, drove the McQueens to begin their experiment with at-home learning in 2015
Fear of school shootings is obviously a bad reason to avoid school given how many people die in car crashes each year, statistically the risk is negligible. And if you want more black history curriculum it's not hard to supliment it at home. I think you are much more likely to go to prison if you are uneducated. Racial bias concerns is a legitimate reason to avoid traditional schools though.
The reality is more homeschooling is completely unregulated in the majority of states, so people can do almost anything.
Most states require no formal education from the parents at all to teach. Many don't require any form of assessment or to keep a portfolio or records of education. Some have required subjects but no real enforcement of them being taught. Any form of standardized testing or auditing may not even be required. If you wanted to keep your kid at home and not educate them at all, you could easily do it in most states.
Would you really bet a system like we have now would provide better outcomes overall?
There’s a diverse set of homeschool/unschool lived experiences. There’s a diverse set of challenges and opportunities that change on a family by family, child by child basis. Homeschool proponents aren’t trying to take anything from you, they just want the option to do things their way, in the privacy of their own home at their own expense with their own labor. That’s all. I’m glad you had a great (normal?) school experience. I’m grateful for your concern about the children of homeschoolers. Please do not confuse your concern with the correctness of the school system for our child. It’s well established the US is a follower in school performance. That should be all the justification we need.
Start w/ smart kids w/ relatively affluent parents and any educational strategy succeeds. The kids will do well no matter what. Start w/ less innately intelligent kids w/ uneducated, poor parents and that is where you see what really works. Virtually all studies/articles about unschooling/less schooling approaches and they don't control for this variable.
Show me homeschooling/unschooling/Waldorf/Montessori/Reggio works for poor kids w/ uneducated parents. Until then, I don't give a shit.
I have worked w/ a lot of autodidacts, including a couple better known ones in the software world. They all had professor parents and comfortable upbringings.
When you get into "state schooling", it is also almost a religion - thought shalt not question the teacher, thou shalt not question the dictats of the education establishment, etc.
1. School is probably the best public invention to systematically distribute knowledge to the masses. Some like to point out "dropouts", "self-taught" geniuses or the "lucky few" as models instead of exceptions to the rule.
2. Not everyone is self-motivated to learn. Children, at critical developmental ages, are more prone to be led astray than "follow their passions" (at this age, really?). They will more likely be manipulated by vices if not constantly monitored.
3. Not all parents are good teachers. Usually, responsible families understand the value proposition- they wish their children have a better future- and education is the ticket that provides these opportunities.
4. School's purpose is not to teach obedience or even getting a job. It is there to teach us critical thinking, and consequently, how to be a good citizen.
Public schools, with all its flaws, are the best instruments to free the masses. Knowledge is democratized power to avoid the corruption that absolute power entails.
1. More than just teaching the curriculum, schools are great for socializing with other children your age, learning how to share, how to deal with drama and to grow some empathy. Not to mention the benefits of getting used to rules, authorities and schedules.
2. Getting in contact with how other people live and with what others think, specially outside your family, can be enlightening sometimes. The handful of successful anecdotes shared here, besides falling as survival bias, don't represent cases of disfunctional families or families crazy towards subjects like religion, science, violence, racism or politics. For every happy family there is at least another one potentially raising sociopaths.
3. Many cases of child abuse are committed by family members, frequently by parents at their own home. Allowing children to miss school takes off from them the chance of a teacher noticing such abuses or at least teaching them the limits on their bodies and well being.
4. In some cases, and I'm not sure this applies to the US, schools are the best source of food for poor children (assuming it's free).
I understand that people in favor of home schooling are not saying that home schooling should be mandatory for everyone. So in this sense, only families able to provide a positive experience to children would try it. I'm afraid that when this rationale is even an option, families could wrongfully choose home schooling, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes not so much. And in the long run I'm afraid it could leat to less public funding for schools when people are pressured or at least influenced to try home schooling their kids.
Then in the summer vacation between 10th grade and 11th grade I got hit with a hobby of Electronics. I read by mistake an old book, from 60's, that was in my father's book collection, of how to create a radio for short waves that was powered by a potato (the vegetable, not the sarcasm!). And I went down through that rabbit hole. I started to learn electronic components and what they do. That required Physics, which I knew nothing about it - so I started to learn Physics as well. Well, have you ever encountered Physics to be, in practice, applicable without Math? So I started to learn Math all by myself. Between ages of 16 to 18, while I was as Senior in high school I recovered all previous 10 years when I slacked worse than a worm. That allowed me to go to University where I got hit by another hobby - programming. Both these hobbies still stay with me to this day.
So yeah, I would argue not only is possible to learn Math all by yourself, but I'd say that doing so you actually learn it even better then when is forced upon you, even if you're good at it.
I'd -love- to go through some of my college level math classes; both the ones I took, and the ones i didn't need to take. They weren't especially relevant then. They're slightly more now, but more than that, I'm -interested- now. But self-learning takes too much of an investment of time (when I run into something I don't know I have to research -that-, and it becomes this infinite process of diving down rabbit holes, rather than having someone who has gone before who can give me a sufficient answer to unblock me on my original question).