Why Italians don't drink a cappuccino after 11am [video]
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For a couple of reasons. First off, anecdote. I myself am severely lactose intolerant, which I inherited genetically. I have lived in Italy and know Italians pretty well, and in my experience lactose intolerance is so unusual in Italy that people are often amazed to hear of my condition. Lactase (Lactaid etc.) is quite rare in the country, so much so that I usually bring in large quantities when I fly there. Granted, my experience is largely in the north, but I have also lived for quite some time in Rome.
Italians eat a fair bit of high-lactose foods (cream; cappucino, young and soft cheeses, mmmm, squaquerone; certain pasta dishes; and of course gelato) and I have never seen a complaint, while I myself have to be careful around all of them.
But second, as far as I understand it, the claim that Italians are lactose intolerant is not supported by current evidence. Studies in the 1980s in support of the hypothesis were largely based on self-diagnosis, which anyone who knows Italians ("Colpo D'aria") realizes is fraught with problems. It is my understanding that later and much better studies have suggested that lactose intolerance in Italy is far lower than suggested 40 years ago.
http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2016/12/italians-arent-lacto...
People normally are astonished when I explain that that’s pretty much the only reason why air conditioners have historically been so thin on the ground in even the stifling heat of Roman summer.
*Edit: for those of you who don't know, colpo d'aria is a made-up disease used by Italian mothers to explain why their kids have to be bundled up ridiculously in order to go out in the cold: the closest term in English would be "catching your death". Italians are extraordinarily superstitious and hyperchondriacal about diseases and disorders. Frauds run rampant and homeopathy is openly advertised in drug stores as if it's real.
I usually use 2-4 lactaid capsules when eating dairy and sometimes 8 when it’s some super cheesy pizza or something. I live in the United States. I visited Italy last year, and I ate a lot of ice cream, cheesy pastas, and pizzas without any problems. Same with my father and uncle who are lactose intolerant. Do you know if there’s anything different about Italian dairy vs American dairy? I recognize my experience is super anecdotal, but it’s quite funny as my uncle, my father, and I got cocky about our ability to eat US dairy after coming home from Italy and immediately regretted it! So yeah, we’re definitely lactose intolerant
Here’s also this silly link I just got off of google: https://www.wantedinrome.com/news/living-with-lactose-intole...
In the Netherlands cheap supermarket pizzas often have more fake cheese than real cheese. I can imagine that might mean less lactose, but maybe something in the fake cheese is giving you problems.
In the Netherlands most milk is pasteurized. I can imagine this is the case in the US too. In the Netherlands there is a special protected branding of cheese that is not pasteurized (boerenkaas). Pasteurizing milk reduces the calcium level. I can imagine Italians might prefer using unpasteurized milk products more than people in other countries.
But as to your question, from what I understand, preparation can have a great effect on amount of lactose so the traditional Italian methods likely prepare cheeses in a way that reduces lactose.
Summarizing:
- Italians in the North are less prone to lactose malabsorption than those in the South - They don't drink cappuccinos after 11 because it's heavy to digest - The video includes some information about why milk is hard to digest, and other things
Genuinely curious, not insulting/snarky.
Browsing websites like HN is one thing. Youtube is over the top, like turning on Netflix. "Oh look, Chuck is watching Youtube again."
On the other hand I guess if it’s your lunch break, why not
I've only worked at one, (now mostly remote, pre-ncov) maybe I was spoilt, but, perhaps as a result, I wouldn't want to feel that I couldn't. I'm not operating factory machinery.
It's not ideal, but it's human nature, and I don't think any company, no matter how good their culture, can remove it.
Someone I know, who is lactose intolerant, believes that frozen milk isn't as bad, I've not found any scientific evidence of this, so it's probably not true, but she thinks she is more tolerant of frozen milk products, so maybe there is some reason?
Don't look now, but the Italians love their espresso after dinner.
decaf espresso*I suppose hard to digest could be made to mean, makes you sleepy but I find coffee wakes people up and why is it ok to be sleepy before noon
If it means makes your stomach unhappy then avoid it, not have it and be uncomfortable
Some non-snarky comments provided some really good counter examples, eg they eat ice cream all afternoon.
Also from my own experience in the south: every morning kids eat a bowl of milk with a shot of espresso over cereal.
Crunchy granola
And to this American who enjoyed a slice between classes I could not understand why. I concluded it was too hot and no one wanted to turn up the pizza oven. Is that correct assumption?
If you want pizza for lunch you head to a bakery or “bar” and they have squares (not “slices”) ready for you to pick up.
But pizza stuffs was the restaurant's clearly advertised purpose.
It sounds absolutely silly but really there’s few good reasons for most of our habits.
The sign of a seasoned traveler is someone who enjoys the quirks of various cultures, instead of ridiculing them.
One of the things that dismays me about the European Union is that each country seems to be losing its identity. Ditto for the United States.
Sorry, I know you were just joking.
Fantastic meal, by the way. I had never understood risotto until then.
Maybe they'd already packed the milk away for the day?
I just can't get the day started without the smell of breakfast.
It all depends on what time you wake up, I wake up very late when I'm not working and have breakfast even if it's 2pm.
No way I'm skipping it, if I'm out of latte, I go to a bar and have a cappuccino (milk for cappuccino is more creamy, so it taste better and make the popular foam, it's also a bit harder to digest but there's also less of it in a cappuccino than in a caffellatte)
No shame in it, bars are there to serve not to judge.
Contrary to what people believe you can ask for a cappuccino whenever you want in Italy, the only exception is meals, no cappuccino during lunch/dinner, no cappuccino immediately before or after it.
Usually Italians don't have a cappuccino after a certain hour because bars run out of brioche (we call them cornetti) and a cappuccino without cornetto it's almost not worth it.
And because if you have it to close to lunch or dinner, grandma is not gonna be happy that you are not eating your 30th fettina panata.
But it's 2020 in Italy too and there are a lot of options for lactose intolerant, one is skimmed milk, another is lactose free milk
They are both very populyar and every bar serve them.
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@moderators ok this is getting a bit ridiculous. Few minutes in and the usual downvote arrives.
Am I being targeted?
There are downvotes I deserved or that are understandable, but lately they are coming as soon as I comment.
On any topic, even the less popular (like this one)
I'm not believing anymore it's coincidence.
> a cappuccino without cornetto it's almost not worth it.
> you can ask for a cappuccino whenever you want in Italy, the only exception is...
> grandma is not gonna be happy that you are not eating your 30th fettina panata
This is all so beautifully Italian I love it! <3
> a cappuccino without cornetto it's almost not worth it.
This in particular, it's 200% true.
I met a wonderful, wonderful lady from Poland who is the joy of my heart, but she once had a cappuccino right after herrings and it was so shocking it’s giving me flashbacks.
> Contrary to what people believe you can ask for a cappuccino whenever you want in Italy, the only exception is meals, no cappuccino during lunch/dinner, no cappuccino immediately before or after it.
I thought this was funny. "You can order it whenever, except when you can't."
I am Albanian, and we drink coffee all the time, even in the evening. We just don't have any rules on can't have coffee after a meal.
The main reason some places would stop serving coffee after 7pm is because they switch into 'bars', and they'd rather sell alcoholic drinks.
Theory -
HN has changed their algorithm (I think they always are) and bots are interacting with it causing this.
I'd guess HN pushes you down if your last comment was downvoted.
And the bots who need to seem normal assume you've been downvoted so also downvote.
On the (admittedly off topic) note of you getting downvotes: I suspect some of it probably has to do with your English writing skills, unfortunately. I would suggest giving a service like Grammarly a shot to try to make your writing a little more professional, because a lot of folks will dismiss comments outright that look poorly written without even considering the underlying thoughts being expressed. It definitely sucks when you're trying to communicate in a language other than your primary language.
In some places they care more than others, but you can make a perfect cappuccino with simple whole milk.
My problem with English is twofold, I'm not the best at it and I find writing from the smartphone painful, even in Italian.
I'll give a shot to grammarly, thanks!
English is such a mixed up language but you can mangle it up in loads of different ways and it’ll still come out fine.
If it's of any comfort, I find your post informative, thanks. And who cares of carma points anyway...
How would skimmed milk help with lactose intolerance?
The remaining 80% could be summarized in 2-3 sentences. Do we really need a video?
On can either throw back an espresso, or sip and consider its flavour. This guy does good complete videos of the latter style. Each to their own.
Coffee is just a ground bean extracted in hot water after all.
Must be a market for it. I think Siri does it now.
When you consider person that regularly watches Youtube they might be interested.
Claiming lactose malabsorption is a very strong claim, considering it's backed by pretty much no evidence at all.
It's really, really bs.
And this is not about being Italian or not (full disclosure: I am).
We have a lot of milk-based or dairy-based products even in the evening or for dinner (I just had pasta with gorgonzola cheese). Pastries too! Tiramisù is very common in restaurants, and half of it is mascarpone cheese.
Again, this video is bullshit.
Well, some cheeses have (little to) no lactose, so maybe that's a consideration?
"In the case of Gorgonzola DOP, lactic bacteria consume lactose during the fermentation that occurs along the cheese-making process."
https://en.gorgonzola.com/the-science-column/gorgonzola-chee...
"For some people who have determined they are only lactose intolerant, cheese can be eaten. This is because lactose is primarily in the whey, not the curds. When cheese is being made (with the exception of some soft cheeses that contain whey, like ricotta) the whey (liquid) is discarded and the lactose goes with it. "
https://www.thespruceeats.com/lactose-intolerance-and-cheese...
"On every Nutrition Facts panel, you’ll find the amount of sugar in that food. If it says 0g, that means there’s no sugar… and no sugar in Cabot cheddar cheese means no lactose!"
While lactic acid bacteria (LAB) indeed consume the lactose in cheese curds, not all of the lactose is consumed, especially so in fresh cheeses (like gorgonzola, mozzarella, feta, mascarpone, roquefort, camembert, brie, etc. etc.). Even hard cheeses may have a significant amount of lactose left particularly if they haven't aged for a very long time. Some hard cheeses are made in a special manner that purposely removes the lactose from their curd before forming, for example gouda (these are called washed-curd cheeses). The point of removing lactose in this way is to stop the LAB from fermenting it any further and giving the cheese an acidic, tangy taste; this is why such cheeses taste "sweet" (compared to e.g. gruyere or parmesan).
As to the lactose being "primarily" in the whey, how "primarily" it is, is a matter of perspective. If sufficient lactose was not left in the curds, cheese would never be able to mature. Cheese matures because of the enzymes released by LAB while the cheese ripens (LAB also release enzymes as they die and their cells rupture, but the cause of death is desiccation because of the salt added to cheese and it takes a long time). This is for example why whey cheeses like ricotta, which are made by boiling whey to a high temperature (80C or 176F) do not mature: their LAB flora is boiled to death.
Bottom line: lactic acid fermentation is not a sufficient explanation for the ability of people with "lactose maldigestion" to eat cheese, particularly so fresh cheese.
Lunch and dinner are salty food, and there's no place for milky drinks. In fact, drinking milk in general is just a breakfast thing for most Italians - perhaps as an afternoon snack with some Nutella when you're a kid.
But so it's the whole Dutch lunch for an Italian (bread, butter and hagelslag wouldn't even be considered a meal, I think)
We just don't have any rules on can't have coffee after a meal.
The main reason some places would stop serving coffee after 7pm is because they switch into 'bars', and they'd rather sell alcoholic drinks to make more profit. Many coffee only houses stay open past 10pm, especially in the summer.
It seems this 'don't drink cappuccinos after a certain hour' is mostly a cultural thing.
It's not a lactose intolerance problem at all.
I'm curious, are you from a country where milk is conventionally UHT treated? UHT milk has a sweet (and plasticky) taste to me.
while it is at the bottom of the list, lactose is sweet
For one, he didn't say anything about coffee, but rather cappuccino (and other milk-based espresso drinks) specifically. A quick google seems to show that this holds up — I found a number of other easy sources that say the same thing.
They also mentioned wide variation in lactose tolerance, including between the north and south of Italy. You'd probably want to make sure that Albania is expected to have a similar lactose intolerance as Italy's population. Even within Europe the variance is very high — head a country or two north and you suddenly get up to _huge_ population-level tolerance levels of 75-80%+ in Scandinavia.
You mentioned butter/cheese and the video covers that specifically, saying that especially hard cheeses only have a tiny fraction of the lactose content that milk does (~5%, but varying by the type of cheese). So there's no reason for cheese to be treated with the same level of care.
Who knows, but I found the video to be as convincing as any other rationale for the taboo.
But even a small amount of milk can create a large amount of flatus (gas). And now you're back in the office, in the middle of a meeting.
Come to think of it, not a bad idea: next time, cappucinos on the house at lunchtime for everyone! Maybe add a few milk-based Indian sweets to the snack tray too, for mutual enjoyment. Serve it all up "tout suite!" as the French say!
Of my family two are lactose tolerant, and two not. Makes major differences in the milk used.
From my direct experience European cities further East and North fare much better, I can say that with first-hand experience about the city I live in (Bucharest) and about Bratislava, too (which I've found to be better compared to Vienna). I've also heard/read very good things about Budapest and Berlin, and (as an exception to my first part of the post) I've found coffee shops in the Chamberí district of Madrid to be serving quite good coffee.
All this to say that the Italians do not have the monopoly on saying how one should drink his/her coffee or not, for the simple fact that the Italians mostly only care about a small sub-set of coffee culture (i.e. espressos/ristrettos)
- A tidy coffee machine. Coffee grounds are home for all kinds of living organisms that can make or break a cup of coffee. This is the killer factor.
- The water (hardiness, etc). Madrid has, arguably, one the best tap water in Spain and probably tops most European capitals. Most islands in the Mediterranean have sorry coffee due to the use of treated saltwater as tap water - from tap right into your espresso. Yuck! (obviously not a problem at a 5 star place where they use mineral water).
- The milk. For the best experience try the coffee in Galicia, and some parts of the North of Portugal. Some rural towns with a tradition in dairy production can give you a pleasant surprise if you're looking for that creamy taste with a foamy light texture. Rural areas is also where dirty machines dwell, so it's not a guaranteed good experience.
- The coffee and coffee culture. Generally most places carry the national/local brands. Italy definitely has the best mass produced coffee brands, but Portugal is a close second for their awesome ristrettos. The rest of cities or neighborhoods... It depends on how upscale they are. Ie. Chamberí is smart and upscale. I'm not comparing coffee shops with baristas, but the average coffee you get in the off-off places where tourists would not walk in but that account for 99% of all coffee served in Europe.
But I believe that's the least important factor tbh.
I admit I haven't been to Budapest or Bratislava but I've been to some of the supposedly-best places in Berlin and been pretty disappointed. A shocking fraction of them use UHT milk.
I drank a lot of coffee in Oz though. I loved how easy it is to get a good coffee. It seemed more accessible and standards higher across the board.
I personally really enjoyed Greek style Coffee but I guess not for everybody. I'm hardly what you would call a coffee snob here in Australia though.
If you want a deep dive into the science of all things coffee related all James' videos are well resesarched, well presented, and come from a person with a deep afinity for coffee.
More often people in Italy make breakfast with brioches and cappuccino, but just because the coffee here is veeery small compared to American coffe.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Highly recommend if you want to relax and watch someone be consistently disappointed by coffee for 20 minutes every now and again.
Actually, how much scientific consensus is there on nutrition and health, other than "eat healthy and varied diet"?
First, the whole thing is based on a wrong assumption. It is not true that italians do not drink cappuccino after 11 o clock. This should be rephrased as follows: "why italians do not drink cappuccino after breakfast, whenever that is". I'll give you the quickest example I can think of. When I was way younger, on holidays I would go party in the night and wake up way late and I would have breakfast very late, let's say at the time of lunch. I would still order a cappuccino if I felt like it. That's because, is short, time is... relative! The same applies of course to anyone having night shifts and any other scenario you can think of.
To support the first argument I'll also add that italians would never have a cappuccino after they had breakfast, even if it's still early in the morning. Usually an Italian will have a cappuccino early before work, and then a coffee in the coffee break at mid morning. I wouldn't imagine that anyone would get a cappuccino then, even if it's before 11 am, and even if they did not have a cappuccino before.
So why do italians do no drink cappuccino after breakfast? Simply put, for the same reason in any given meal in western culture no one would eat the desert before the main course in any given meal. I would say it's a cultural thing, but we can call it as we want, the only sure thing is that it has nothing to do with lactose.
Before anyone replies that the order of servings in meals is not comparable to the time at which is admissible to drink cappuccino, please consider that we italians are very very very observant/proud/aware of what/when we eat.
In Italy there are hundreds of other non written rules like this for many other types of food, and like this one, most of them are part of the culture. There are literally too many examples to make, so I'll give you just this: go to Bologna and ask for some spaghetti with the bolognese sauce. If you are lucky they'll simply call you a "tourist". The bolognese sauce can be put on any kind of pasta, except spaghetti. This is very little known and the weirdest part is that all around the world the bolognese sauce became famous with the spaghetti, but I can assure you that no one from bologna will ever have the bolognese sauce on spaghetti. Why? In the end is only a cultural thing. Even if I must add that saying that it's only a cultural thing makes me feel dirty, because putting the bolognese sauce on spaghetti is actually a sin.
Having said that, I hope the message got through and please, do enjoy food, especially italian food, whenever you feel like it and however you like it!
The taste of coffee can be improved a little bit buy sprinkling cocoa power into the foam of the oat milk. And optionally adding honey for sweetness.
Oat milk tastes a little different than regular milk. But its very close and foams very well. There might some difference, because I noticed the coffee would hit a little bit stronger with oat milk. Perhaps there's some chemistry going ... don't know why.
But the reason I switched, is because I was getting stomach cramps about once a month from cow's milk in my coffee. Would ruin my day. The only thing that help me with the stomach cramps was a bowl of rice for some reason.
Decided to try other milks to see if would fix my problem and it did. Never liked any other kinds of milk until oat milk. They add lots of chalk to the nut milks. So with oat milk you can avoid that too.
The only downside is the price.