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Comment by jbrun | Hacker News Reader

Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.

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So far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time), and that left us fall behind the world economically. And the latter so-called "lifted out of poverty" (a oftenly used propaganda tune in Chinese spokesmen to refute others' human rights infringement blame) is nothing but opening up the nation and letting our hardworking people to make products for the world (mostly in downstream application wise products, even nowadays, you see huge Chinese tech companies all cannot live w/o Github, btw, that's why government doesn't block github). Which is seen by me just recovering those years we had losing in politics and culture revolution.

I don't think most of party member even know what github is.

You should not underestimate CCP, remember they initiated a large scale DDoS attack targeting github? And they blocked gist but not github.

>So far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time

How do you explain Poverty of India then? It doesn't suffer from one person in power.

India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empire

Lifting that many people out of poverty is nothing sort of a miracle

> India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empire

Any source for your claims?

The truth:

India population in 1800: 169 million [0]

China population in 1800: 322 million (nearly double India’s)

As for GDP:

China’s GDP (PPP) per capita in 1800: $316K [1]

India’s GDP (PPP) per capita in 1800: $177K

Note this is per capita. Factoring in the population difference, China’s overall GDP (PPP) was almost 4 times that of India. Hardly “roughly equal”.

I’m using 1800 as a reference year since it’s easier to find data for it.

And GDP (PPP) in 1980 (IMF estimates): [2]

China’s GDP (PPP) in 1980: $305K

India’s GDP (PPP) in 1980: $381K

India’s GDP in 1980 actually surpassed China: 4-5 times growth compared to China! (from 1800 to 1980)

This proves the grandparent comment that “IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time”.

India’s population growth nearly doubles China’s (from 1800 to now) . Not surprising that, on average, more Indians are poorer than Chinese.

[0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-population-race-a-300-y...

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-2nqd6-ZXg

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_...

You don't need to look at 1800 data, because it is irrelevant. If you want to show what CCP did, you have to show the data in range. [2] is the chart comparing India to China from 1950 - 2010, which is the period when CCP is in power. I wish economy, society and history is so easy and everyone can nail down to a single sentence on the root of any economy phenomena. I love how he describe being poor was because of arrogance, lol.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China

[2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/GD...

Edit: formatting

Mao wants to surpass United Kingdom in 15 years and then US. Given China's condition at that time, if that is not arrogance, then it must be at least overestimation of his power.

It seams India was ahead for most of the past two millennia. Population CHINA INDIA 1AD 59.6M 75.0M 1000AD 59.0M 75.0M 1600AD 160.0M 135.0M 1700AD 138.0M 165.0M 1820AD 318.0M 209.0M

Estimated Real GDP per capita in 2011 USD (cgdppc in source) Selection of roughly comparable dates (note no chinese GDP per capita estimates from before 1661). CHINA INDIA 1600s $940(1661) $1228(1228) 1700s $686(1766) $1103(1750) 1820s $741(1820) $ 968(1821) 1900 $840 $1131 1950 $757 $1417 1980 $1690 $1143 2000 $4071 $2003

I wouldn't take this as gospel. These are estimates put together from patchy historical sources and probably widely innacurate. But it seems to indicate that India was ahead in population for much of the last two thousand years. And ahead of China in GDP per capita for most of the past 400 years.

Source Maddison project, University of Gronigen [0] https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/relea...

>And the latter so-called "lifted out of poverty" (a oftenly used propaganda tune in Chinese spokesmen to refute others' human rights infringement blame) is nothing but opening up the nation and letting our hardworking people to make products for the wo

if that was the case there'd be fewer poor countries on the planet. The Chinese government has made many mistakes, a lot of them quite terrible, but a lot of progress over the last few decades also is the result of successful and active governance. Statecraft is not something that just happens or that is trivial.

Even just creating an open environment and the sort of conditions that let hardworking people do what they want is difficult, successful ecosystems are built, they don't happen because everyone at the party office just drops their suitcase and goes home.

Not quite difficult, enslave them, intimidate and threaten their social security, will make any spice not lazy.

> I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history

And you forget to say that the amount of people verged into absolute poverty by CPC is also the biggest shame of human history.

Nowhere else in history few hundred million people verge forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewhat moderately industrialised economy.

Chinese people have nothing to thank communists for. Any opinion differing from this is preposterous.

In context of a stacked deck: century of colonial ravaging, postswar destruction and western bloc containment, the CCP had the ambition to pursue rejuvenation over stagnation and prevented the historic pattern of collapse and fragmentation. Of course there was incredible human costs, but on balance the right decisions were made. IMO Mao was more than 30% bad, but he maintained territorial integrity and the conditions for PRC to thrive. The generation he fucked over have nothing to be thankful for, but the generations that came after does, 30% bad is going to shrink with each year as Chinese comprehensive power grows. CCP today is not the same as CCP from 50 years ago, even if ideology seems to be once again converging. With exception of nuclear war, increasing comprehensive power will insulate the cost of making mistakes. There's simply more resources and tools for "harmonious" governance now, the soldiers that shot students because they didn't have access to riot gear is not going to need bullets when they have access to lethal alternatives, if social credit even allows situations to devolve that far in the first place. At the end of the day, CCP build modern China to credibly deter against external forces, situation is still far from good for many, but it's better than what most (arguably all other) countries could accomplish, and considering sheer Chinese scale, many Chinese are thankful for the outcome. Even the ones who fled and continues to flee with their wealth. There's something to be said for building indigenous nuclear, space and military program in the face of western sanctions, while simultaneously uplifting coastal populace in per capita GDP/PPP to rival the aggregate wealth and living standards of fellow developed Asian countries who got to where they are with US assistance.

> IMO Mao was more than 30% bad, but he maintained territorial integrity and the conditions for PRC to thrive

And ceded 1m+ square kilometres to USSR.

> The generation he fucked over have nothing to be thankful for, but the generations that came after does, 30% bad is going to shrink with each year as Chinese comprehensive power grows

Unless the country is not steered back into the abyss, which is seemingly is the case. They blew it all.

> China to credibly deter against external forces, situation is still far from good for many, but it's better than what most countries could accomplish, and considering sheer Chinese scale, many Chinese are thankful for the outcome.

Every Chinese citizen I know, hates the party with deep, deep passion, and that includes not so few party members themselves.

> CCP build modern China to credibly deter against external forces

You have to really turn on the TV.

I feel, you are in denial of objective reality under influence of virulent Xiism.

Yes, the CCP ceded land in majority of border settlements, but core interests were preserved. Relatively minor cost for actually mitigating external frictions seeing as how the only remaining land border India/Bhutan is causing so much shit show now not to mention SCS disputes. Or China would be in a better position had they not acceded to Mongolian independence.

>hates the party with deep, deep passion

I mean... what else is new? Not many countries with widespread support for their government, especially now, times are hard for almost everyone, everywhere. Citizens in multiparty systems hate their politicians too, they just also happen to hate rival parties more. Modernity + capitalism is stressful, personally preferable stress than being subsistence farmers. Maybe some prefer if China was contained and stagnant in an agrarian society. Most of my extended family hates the CCP, lost everything during cultural revolution. Some got fucked again during Xi's corruption crack downs. More lament at their kids future because competing in the world's largest country isn't easy. Most of them could also sell their tier1 city condos and retire comfortably in any western country as millionaires. These are people who benefited enormously from the system. People aren't rational.

>virulent Xiism

I wasn't a fan of Xi, but he inherited unfavorable geopolitical conditions and in retrospect seized the right opportunities. US pivoted to Asia before him, the relationship was always going to devolve into competition. Hide and bide was on last legs, and Trump didn't help with setting new truculence. They managed situation OK considering how this wildcard US admin was stacked with China Hawks. Pompeo isn't sailing carriers groups through the Taiwan Strait anymore, and the weapons sales are a pittance compared to the 90s.

>They blew it all

US anxiety and to rise of China threat was always going to be triggered by a combination of Chinese economy eclipsing US and scale of Chinese military buildup commiserate with 14T economy. It's inevitable. But economy and military reformed are basically at a level of appropriate competitiveness and regional deterrence to address shifting US foreign policy. Maybe another few years would help with the IC / turbojet situation, but US was cracking down on MIC2025 since Obama. 20 years ago, Chinese hated the government, worshipped the west, and couldn't dream of a world outside of western hegemony. Now they're somewhat confident about the government and recognize the west are not untouchable. Hate + confidence is an improvement. I didn't think I'd live to see the day where comfy Chinese diaspora in the west or international students want to go back, but those conversations are happening.

This comment is correct. Many Chinese international students do not want to lose their Chinese passport because they believe in the economic opportunity in China.

It's a powerful sentiment. But it needs to withstand the objective test of demonstrating, numerically, its narrative against historical data.

When the CPC took power, the GDP per capita was 54 USD in 1952 (earliest date in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China).

If you chose your words carefully and still state "forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewhat moderately industrialised economy", one would expect the GDP per capita to revert to 1 USD. In reality, GDP per capita grew to 89 USD in 1960, at its worst reverted to 71 USD during the height of the famine and recovered 3 years later to 98 USD.

> It's a powerful sentiment. But it needs to withstand the objective test of demonstrating, numerically, its narrative against historical data.

And millions of very real starving Chinese did no need your data.

Statistical data of every Eastern bloc country was faked, and the data you cite is fake.

Clarification: I meant rule of law broadly speaking as a human invention (like science and medicine), not specific to China. Sorry for the confusion.

One of my high school friends has become a judge in my hometown (fulfilling his dream), and they are actually a team specialising in dealing with cases against local authorities[0]. I exchange conversation with him about all kinds of societal issues. I don't know how it can represent everywhere in China but I understand that the legal system has improved massively comparing with decades ago. In major cities most civil cases are ruled by law and working quite well. You can have any opinion you like but I find people completely dismissing a working legal system in China is a bit silly.

[0]https://zj.zjol.com.cn/red_boat.html?id=100995604

There is no separation of powers in China and therefore there is no rule of law. In theory the Party's congress could enforce a defacto independent judiciary, but the evidence is of course that they don't, they are the biggest theatrical production not called that.

If that wasn't enough you could trivially look up how many lawyers end up imprisoned or worse.

It's not even a bit silly to argue China has anything near a working legal system, it absolutely doesn't.

I'm talking about lower courts such as county/city courts that deal with all local level proceedings. They function just as English magistrates/county courts. I'm not sure how the separation of power has anything to do with these local judiciary. If you talk about corruption that's a different issue.

For me if these courts are exercising their judicial power legally and properly then we at least have a working civil legal system (not 'none'). There are unfair cases with international concerns but it's not unique to China. I don't think a majority of the local courts in China are malfunctioning or abusing power. If you have evidence to back your claim up I'm happy to read that.

https://www.worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-index/countr...

Sounds like you don't read to many news papers by the way. You might want to check out what's going in in Hong Kong under Chinese pressure. Good demonstration of what the Chinese state thinks of independent judiciaries.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my comments. Yes of course I am aware of the status quo and very much following all major events. What I was commenting was the general everyday activity involving law and legal system. I don't know how you get confused but I wasn't referring to events like the Hong Kong situation, which is clearly not a local level case.

I merely want to contribute to a meaningful discussion by personal experience so I wouldn't expand to those topics (in my opinion quite sensationalised by social media). I live in Europe now and absolutely understand what the general public are interested in.

If you have to be wary of not stepping into territory where the state will wield its heavy hand, then I just don't see how you can maintain it is functioning at a 'local' level. What's local? It's not like the Chinese state clearly delineates the boundary. And looking at the imprisoned lawyers, local authorities are not above blocking inconvenient litigation either.

I did not link to social media, nor do I use it, so please refrain from assuming it has any influence on the point I'm making. I'm sure perfectly fine litigation has happened, it would just be foolish to count on it. Maybe you're right that with an increasingly limited issue you luck increases.

I don't understand what you mean by 'wary of not stepping into territory where the state will wield its heavy hand'. I was simply giving examples of the part of legal system that I know of. Pardon my English, what I call 'local' is meant to be 'civil cases' like business and personal cases. And yes of course the legal system delineates those cases from national level cases. My original argument was that civil cases largely work well (unless you prove me wrong by statistics).

I didn't make any assumption of your information sources nor did I assert any influence of social media. It was only a general statement, not about anybody in particular. It was you who 'assumed' I didn't read any news etc. I fully respect all users' opinions here and would genuinely be interested to read any reference/articles to prove your points. I'll be surprised that the imprisoned lawyer cases were happening all the time in the lower courts.

A great achievement overshadowed by it's execution. Achievements in a authoritarianism system are not that interesting.

Could you elaborate on why it is such a great achievement? Seems like a pretty natural consequence of their growing economy.

lifting a billion people out of poverty, would be a big achievment in terms of economic planning, logistics and resource planning. those are no small tasks. also while maintaining social integrity. yeah, the ccp takes away a lot of freedoms, but how would you do maintain a cohesive society ?

>maintaining social integrity

>takes away a lot of freedoms

pick one?

In order for social integrity to be maintained we need to give up some freedoms.

Well the freedoms being taken away in this instance involve throwing certain religious groups into labor camps, so maybe consider the context of the argument.

Why is would a cohesive society require removing freedoms? In fact that west has shown this needn't be the case.

has the west shown this is the case ? or it's an illusion of freedom ? here in the US, people vote and elect officials etc. But to those officials pass laws that help the people ? hardly so, but instead pass laws that benefit corporations firstly over human people. As a black person, I can speak up against mass incarceration, but do I have power to end it, NO. That's the illusion of freedom. It's the illusion that all men are equal under law, but we know the law treats you differently based on wealth, skin color etc.

You're looking at a country of a billion people, not only that this increase wasn't hoarded like it in the west it was government directed and shared out among most of the people in the country.

It's not a natural consequence of economic growth. The United States has hundreds of thousands of people living in extreme poverty, if not more, despite being one of the most developed countries in the world. Why didn't all the growth end it here?

These are semantic games. This isn’t talking about no one in poverty. This is the equivalent of the United States saying there are no states in a state of poverty. Would you care to characterize any states as being in a state of poverty? How is it defined for a state to be in poverty? Given this is a government created list that the government promised to finish by the end of 2020 and that no one but the government is capable of validating it, what are the odds this is at least somewhat a political tool rather than a legitimate accomplishment?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China#/media...

> one of the greatest achievements in human history

How much has the one child policy contributed to this?

I've lived in China too, and you've definitely drunk the koolaid.

Rule of Law? Really? I applaud raising the people from poverty, but rule of law? In an authoritarian sense I suppose, not in a human rights sense though.

It should be noted that Civil Code of the People’s Republic of China finally passed this year after a 50 year effort.

https://npcobserver.com/legislation/civil-code/

Comprehensive rule-of-law for the plurality for the majority of cases is largely on the horizon. Rule-by-law will of course co-exist for signifiant state matters, but that's a typical balanced arrangement for any competent state.

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