Comment by dragontamer | Hacker News Reader

Comment by dragontamer | Hacker News Reader

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> The army needs propaganda to recruit people because it's not just a job. Soldiers don't have the right to quit if they don't like the working conditions. But many people actually sign up (or re-up) for the money, to pay off student loans, etc.

Look man, if you don't want me comparing nurses to the military, then don't bring it up in the first place (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25213289)

> This is what the army does, it works fine.

Your words, not mine. Find a better comparison. And no, I don't think your "helicopter pilot" argument is serious at this point. There's no way you actually consider helicopter pilots as important as nurses right now.

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> Nursing isn't some kind of uniquely difficult occupation. If a pilot can learn to fly helicopters commercially in a year then I would propose that we can train people to do this, too.

If a nurse quits on their job, then their patients die. You can't just get "another nurse" to do their job (those nurses are also overworked and busy).

If a helicopter pilot quits their job, their passengers need to wait a few more days to find a new pilot.

I have my doubts you're serious with the helicopter discussion point. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove.

Sorry, perhaps I digressed. To get back to the point:

> If a nurse quits on their job, then their patients die.

This is obviously not true, people are not dropping like flies whenever a nurse in America takes a vacation or calls in sick.

Are you seriously claiming that there is a national shortage of people who can be trained to empty bedpans, setup IVs, draw blood, and take temperatures? At any price?

If wages go up, more labor will be available, and there is no shortage.

> Are you seriously claiming that there is a national shortage of people who can be trained to empty bedpans, setup IVs, draw blood, and take temperatures? At any price?

Yes. Because COVID19 is happening right now.

Even if you had infinite money, there's no way you can train all of those people to take care of the COVID19 surge that is literally happening right now.

The effects of the pandemic are here and are already having obvious consequences.

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COVID19's job is closer to shoving catheters into people while you put them under a ventilator, setting up IV drips, etc. etc. But yeah, its happening on a massive scale as we speak.

> This is obviously not true, people are not dropping like flies whenever a nurse in America takes a vacation or calls in sick.

Lets see how long those patients last if a nurse doesn't change out their bedpans or catheters, while refreshing their IV-drips while they're on a ventilator.

Plus the math for keeping track of vitals to determine how many corticosteroids to inject into someone to optimize their chances to live through it all.

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https://oklahoman.com/article/5677006/asymptomatic-health-ca...

I'm not sure if you realize how dire the situation is right now. Nurses who test positive for COVID19 are being kept on the job because there's literally too many patients and not enough nurses.

> COVID19's job is closer to shoving catheters into people while you put them under a ventilator, setting up IV drips, etc. etc.

OK, so how many years of training is required to learn how to insert catheters and IVs and all that? The army demonstrates that anyone can learn these skills in a few days. I'm sorry, but it's just not some kind of unique magical skill set that only special people can learn.

> I'm not sure if you realize how dire the situation is right now.

I'm not sure if you do. There is no crisis, hospitals are not near capacity, there are plenty of empty beds. (Oklahoma, for example, is at 66% capacity, nothing to get hysterical about.) There is no huge difference in hospital bed utilization between today, last week, last month. Remember that giant hospital ship? The one that sat empty in NY harbor and then quietly left without treating a single patient? Excuse me for being desensitized to chicken little's alarming news.

> Nurses who test positive for COVID19 are being kept on the job because there's literally too many patients and not enough nurses.

Nobody is being "kept on the job". Nobody is being forced to work. Those nurses are volunteering to stay on the job.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/no-icu-beds-available-in-t...

Tulsa has run out of ICU beds.

Just because Oklahoma in the aggregate has beds, doesn't necessarily mean that communities have beds anymore (even large ones with comparatively many resources, like Tulsa). And with Thanksgiving around the corner, I'd expect cases to skyrocket right after these celebrations.

> Nobody is being "kept on the job". Nobody is being forced to work. Those nurses are volunteering to stay on the job.

Because they know their patients will die if they don't perform.

> The army demonstrates that anyone can learn these skills in a few days.

Once again with the army comparisons. Its easy to build a training program when you have a $700 Billion/year budget. If you want to make an army-like training program for nurses, then I agree with you. That'd be great for our country.

But I recognize that I have a minority opinion and that most Americans won't accept raising their taxes to pay for such a thing.

> Tulsa has run out of ICU beds.

So now we're in agreement. The sky is not falling, and Tulsa may have a local logistical challenge. Nothing to see here.

> Because they know their patients will die if they don't perform.

It's presumptuous to speak to what others know. All I know is that they weighed the alternatives for themselves and chose to willingly go to work instead of doing all the other things that they could have done instead.

> Its easy to build a training program when you have a $700 Billion/year budget.

Are you arguing that only a $700B/yr organization can train people to do the simple tasks that a soldier learns to do? The field manuals and training materials are all available, you can look and see for yourself that there is no secret super 700 billion dollar teaching method being used. As important as they are, these skills are not uniquely difficult to teach nor to learn. (Nevermind the fact that last year the federal government spent over a trillion dollars on healthcare, and the private sector spent even more than that, so if there is some special budgetary threshold that must be passed before workers can be effectively trained, I think we passed it a long time ago.)

> Americans won't accept raising their taxes to pay for such a thing.

Right, because we don't just assume that the solution to every problem must come from the government. There is absolutely nothing preventing hospitals from training new workers to change bedpans and insert catheters via on the job training. Well, nothing except for all the government regulations, but as they say "nobody gets a speeding ticket at the indy 500". They could do it and it would be fine.

> Are you arguing that only a $700B/yr organization can train people to do the simple tasks that a soldier learns to do?

Not only train the soldier: but also to check on their progress, ensure they are following the proper military culture, growing into their role, and promoting those who are worthy.

The entire life of a soldier is well defined thanks to the work of the generals and leaders of the military. Group organization and cohesion is no accident: its a purposefully built goal. And yes, money has a lot to do with it.

Propaganda and recruitment is a big one: there are literally soldiers going out into the country, and individually recruiting kids out of high school to become a soldier. This increases the talent pool, and effectively lowers the wages you need to offer soldiers (supply and demand after all).

No one is going out there recruiting people into nursing fields.

> So now we're in agreement. The sky is not falling, and Tulsa may have a local logistical challenge. Nothing to see here.

And a record death rate. Are you trying to imply that COVID19 deaths aren't happening or something?

Deaths skyrocket with caseload. Yes, there are treatments that help prevent death, but only if the nurses / doctors have enough time to do their job. If they become overwhelmed, then their ability to process life-saving treatment is mitigated.

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