Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? | Hacker News Reader

Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

wearedevelopers.com

98 pointseigensinn_187 comments

Not at all. Yes Switzerland is probably the best country if you want to follow the rules, have a good quality of life and good education for your children. Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges. This is due to the mentality of the population and the risk aversion of the investors. From a Swiss person.

>This is due to the mentality of the population and the risk aversion of the investors

Can you please expand on those two points?

Investors have very little risk appetite, enterprise makes big money, but innivation is usually pressured into low-cost as much as possible. It’s hard to find a developer job where you get decent pay and interesting work with a swiss company. Source, I’m a software developer since 20 years in Switzerand

>Investors have very little risk appetite

Are high profile investors in Swizterland interested only in retail investments?

Swiss culture is all about safety, confidentiality and responsible spending of already earned money. Additionally, the prevailing business model is that of the Mittelstand small-to-medium enterprise. Small factories spread throughout the whole country, highly specialized in one thing (producing mostly bits of industrial equipment), co-dependent on other such companies to form the economic blood system of the country. A fascinatingly-organized society, nevertheless. From a Bulgarian who has been there for 1 year.

That makes sense, thanks. So there's no dearth of entrepreneurship in CH, but it's concentrated in SMEs focussed on machinery rather than say Internet startups.

In Germany, the southwest, especially Swabia, is more conservative than the north. More tidy-freaks, stingy pennypinchers, more-concerned-with-the-appearance holier-than-thou, "we have always done it like this" and "you didn't clean your sidewalk properly, I've found a leave". Maybe "Kehrwoche" and "schwäbische Hausfrau" will yield sone entertaining google results. Businesswise, it is the region of small to medium family businesses, where the father of course passes on a highly emphasized tradition to the eldest son.

Switzerland is like this, turned to eleven, plus a lot of nationalism and need to be separate from the bigger neighbours. You won't get money from a bank or investor down there unless you are solidly local, doing something they understand and looks like all the other medium family businesses making machines or parts down there.

Caveat: Of course this is full of personal impressions, stereotypes and things like that. And it is strictly a collection of more negative aspects, there is of course a positive side.

I have so many issues with this.

1. BW is governed by the greens. You know what counties get the highest CDU vote in elections? It's not in the south, it's in Niedersachsen (Cloppenburg etc.).

2. Switzerland has different cantons which are very different. I live in the French part where the average person speaks three languages and 40% are foreigners.

3. I can totally understand swiss' people wish to be separate, this has resulted in them having by FAR higher living standards than other Europeans. Salaries are TWICE as high while taxes are TWICE as low. I'm underestimating that by the way. In the meantime Europe has fucked themselves with the Euro and massive migration which has depressed wages, good luck dealing with that.

4. There is HUGE amounts of funding compared to Germany. I'm in the process of that right now and it's kind of insane how many different options are for getting 5-6 digit sums. Got approved for 100k last week and applying for more.

1. Nope, BW greens are not a counter for the population and businesses to behave in a conservative way. Also, BW greens are kind of special, Kretschmann and Palmer are seen as pariahs in the rest of the german green party. They aren't even very green, e.g. they are quite supportive of the local BW car industry which the rest of German greens wants to see gone yesterday.

2. Yes, the French and Italian speaking parts are quite different. But thats less than half of Switzerland, and the big spot everyone seems to be drawn to seems to be Zürich.

3. Yes, but that is just a reason, not a counterargument. Also, costs are TWICE as high in certain areas, i.e. personell and stuff that is not imported from the EU.

4. I don't know what you are doing, and of course I do wish you all the best. But beware and remember that the costs will be high. Switzerland is much more automated than the neighbours, because noone can afford hiring people.

There are very interesting software companies in Switzerland. And those companies are taking a lot of risks as well. Maybe your impression stems from the fact that it's not a very visible ecosystem and the funding is obviously much smaller than in bigger economies.

These companies were not financed by venture capital (except for some cryptocurrency companies, which are popular here indeed). Also, some of the software companies were moved here for tax reasons, but they were founded elsewhere.

Don't know why you are talking in absolutes here. There's quite a bit of venture funding outside of the cryptocurrency space. Crunchbase shows $2B total in funding for Zurich alone (https://www.crunchbase.com/hub/zurich-startups) - don't know how that compares internationally but it's definitely something rather than nothing.

Yes, and there's also a great biotech startup & VC ecosystem.

That's an interesting claim! Is there a tax efficient way to structure a tech company in Switzerland?

Taxation doesn't look very good neither on the personal level (income tax / dividend tax / tax on deemed rental value of your property if you own a house!!!) nor the company one (corporate rate tax, high cost of personnel). They do have some good deductions and a lump sum income tax for foreigners relocating to Switzerland but it seems like you won't benefit from it unless your income is 7 times higher than your yearly rent (or deemed property rental value if you own).

Is there maybe some possible legal fiscal loophole with foreign entities?

The biggest advantage in Switzerland that I know of is no capital gains tax. So if you sell shares of your company you don't pay a tax on the sale.

Pick the right canton. There are many, with very diverse tax codes, and in the smaller ones you even get to negotiate a bit (if you are big and important enough). But of course that will mean you have to be out in the sticks.

No tax on capital gain is just the most important one for any startup... (btw you do get this tax on fictional rental value of your house, but you can deduct all loan interest which are normally higher even today with the 0.8% loan rate)

I tend to agree. Apparently it's very hard to get funding for novel ideas in Switzerland. And yes, risk aversion is a big part of Swiss culture, an example of which being that Swiss are some of the most over-insured people, and savings rates also regularly top the charts. A fairly egalitarian society with a high standard of living makes for a people that doesn't like or "have to" take risks

If you have a lot to lose... My biggest change was the lose of appetite for risk when I moved to a first world country. When you have a comfortable life it’s hard to kick out of it.

And there is a quote: "In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there (compared to Europe).

> Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there

Not really. My bet is on the abundance of capital (hello global reserve currency) combined with excellent universities and a cultural willingness to take risks and do bold things. People who need a safety net, such as food stamps or housing assistance, are rarely the people who start big companies. They're usually too caught up in just trying to survive day-to-day.

And a huge homogenous home market.

Yep agreed.

That's from Jeremy Clarkson, innit?

Despite that quote being mostly wrong [0][1], a safety net might account for some idleness. But there's more. You might find a local variation of the Law of Jante [2], for example.

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckoo_clock#First_modern_cuck...

2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

It's said by Orson Welles' character in "The Third Man" (1949). Famous quote, allegedly ad-libbed: https://youtu.be/I8RW3K3hhWU

> they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

Hey, the Swiss evolved the cuckoo clock into a wristwatch... nope, even this innovation was by two Polish and Czech immigrants.

The primary advantage of the US is cultural. It is not just the anomalously high risk tolerance and wealth, but people who attempt audacious goals tend to be celebrated. Americans shed the Tall Poppy Syndrome that is a very visible feature of virtually all other European cultures, perhaps because the US was predominantly settled by "tall poppies".

After years of working in various parts of Europe, I think it distills down to this. Sufficient talent, desire, and capital exists in Europe -- it is missing no ingredients -- but society there pervasively and subtly undermines anyone who dreams of attempting something really bold. It is a shame.

To put it another way, European culture values humility over ego, and does not applaud those who manage to exploit those "lesser" than themselves quite so much.

No, you are not putting it another way. Achievement is not “exploiting those lesser than themselves”.

It’s not like Switzerland has one of the highest number of nobel prize and patent per capita in the world... That’s really not a spot on cliché quote...

Cuckoo clocks originated in the Black Forest in Germany, north of the Swiss border. People associate them with Switzerland because of innovative marketing!

I don't know how egalitarian it is. Having visited Geneva and spoken with many people there about the crazy high cost of living - it seems that most low wage earners survive by living in nearby French towns and commuting in to work. That's an economy maintained by the indentured servitude of non-native people.

> it seems that most low wage earners survive by living in nearby French towns and commuting in to work

My interviews with Swiss companies when discussing the employment form usually turn to "you can live in France and commute daily to Switzerland". Yeah, thanks no thanks.

I've done that and it was lovely! 20 minutes bike ride each way, crossing the border every morning and evening on my bike. Nicer than most commutes.

In bad weather taking the bus, which was always on time and never delayed in traffic.

The commute of most of those workers is usually less than half of what most rockstars of Sillicon Valley need to endure, not to mention that the public transport extends to border towns in France and is significantly better than the one in SV. Geneva lies directly on the border so those towns are way closer to most workplaces than Oakland is to San Francisco.

The issue with Geneva is that there's no more physical space to build - but living in France with Swiss Geneva canton minimum wage will boost your quality of live way beyond most San Francisco dwellers.

The problem might be there are thousands of French, Italians, and other Europeans sharing the same Swiss dream while standing in the traffic jams. I doubt the rents by the Swiss border in France are at the "French level".

As someone who lived in both places I can easily tell you that Geneva traffic jams / crowds don't come close to what most employees of SF tech startups endure on their way to work.

To make Geneva as awesome as Silicon Valley, you'd have to prolong the jams and time spend on the road by about 2-3x and remove all the busses and trams.

The rent in those region from what I've heard from colleagues (I work as a SWE in Paris) is trough the roof. you also have to pay taxes in both countries, but compensation wise you'll still end up with a significantly better deal even taking into account things like cost of living. The commute is not better for me or my colleagues in the Paris region.

Are we talking about Europe where you are free to live where you want? If people are living in France it’s just that it’s cheaper nobody is prevented to live in Switzerland. The main problem arise when the janitor working in SwitzerlanD is getting 3x the salary of the high school tacher in nearby France. Btw Zurich where the cost of living is higher is far away from any border....

I've lived in Geneva and Zurich, and there is a big difference between the two. Geneva is basically France, with some Italian and Portugese thrown in for added rule breaking, but Swiss so the "special" rules apply to other people. It's full of self-entitled snow flakes, backwards and not like the rest of Switzerland at all.

Exactly. It's an amazing place to live, has good tech scene, but it's not Silicon Valley. Also the economic focus is completely different - they focus on small enterprises and medium sized businesses which form a significantly more resilient economy (there's a reason why Switzerland did rather well in this pandemic).

Asking why the Swiss don't invest in same industries like Californians do would be like asking Morrocans why they don't fund an Alpine ski jumping team.

It's a fundamentally different focus - is that so hard to understand to people living in the Valley? That not all economies see the value in javascript webpages?

> like asking Morrocans why they don't fund an Alpine ski jumping team.

Ski jumping is a Nordic event not Alpine. There are a fair number of Morrocan Alpine ski racers.

> they focus on small enterprises and medium sized businesses

Some of the largest companies have emerged in Switzerland.

For the sceptics: Nestlé, Roche, Novartis, BBC (now ABB), but also Swatch, Syngenta, Schindler, Logitech, Sonova, Ypsomed, etc. just to name a few.

Indeed, and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell.

Forget about doing Bonsais of quality following the latest trends of every software conference, what matters is the physical product that gets out of the assembly line.

> and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell.

And have you worked for them? I have for some. For those who develop software it is an essential tool and the software developers closely work with natural scientists and are as appreciated as any other team member. On the other hand you won't have problems finding an American software company where developers are held in cubicles with no daylight.

I have, but not for that list in particular.

I feel that analogy is wrong somehow, because:

https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/oukaimeden/

They could, and maybe they should :)

>> Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges .. From a Swiss person

This is simply not true. I'm Swiss and working as a developer and consultant in Switzerland since the nineties. I - as many others - was able to do several studies at a world-class university right on my doorstep without getting into debt. People are fair, hardworking, innovative and responsible. Switzerland has ideal conditions for companies and people looking for work. And it's a great place to live. Why do you think Google and others have large development departments in Switzerland? And it's also good for start-ups. Have a look at e.g. https://www.organisator.ch/die-100-besten-startups-der-schwe... and https://www.top100startups.swiss/index.cfm?page=136340&cfid=....

Also see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_rev....

Just came accross the 2019 Global Innovation Index report: https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2019.pdf

The ranking on page xxxiv says:

1. Switzerland 2. Sweden 3. United States of America 4. Netherlands 5. United Kingdom 6. Finland 7. Denmark 8. Singapore 9. Germany

... so not too bad after all.

This "is an annual ranking of countries by their capacity for, and success in, innovation. It is published by Cornell University, INSEAD, and the World Intellectual Property Organization, in partnership with other organisations and institutions,[1]:333 and is based on both subjective and objective data derived from several sources, including the International Telecommunication Union, the World Bank and the World Economic Forum" (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Innovation_Index).

This is not necessarily because Switzerland is high-tech friendly. There is an absolutely massive pharma industry in the country. Lots of innovation comes from there.

And you really don't think pharma qualifies as high-tech? Check e.g. for the OECD definition.

We are talking about Silicon Valley though. A specific kind of "high-tech". Regardless of what the OECD definition is, we are talking about computers/software/internet/etc.

No, it's about whether Switzerland is "Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges". Maybe you know that life science is one of the big computer, software and internet users and contributors; a lot of ground breaking machine learning developments happens in life science today.

> No, it's about whether Switzerland is "Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges"

"Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers..."

> Maybe you know that life science is one of the big computer, software and internet users and contributors; a lot of ground breaking machine learning developments happens in life science today.

Great. That's tech moving into life sciences, like tech is moving into every aspect of society. But that doesn't make life sciences a "tech field". The news industry is bringing in tech too. Doesn't make the news industry a tech field.

But whatever I'm happy that tech is making inroads in switzerland.

You didn't read the article, did you? The original title is "Is Switzerland better than Silicon Valley for software developers?" and it is about the Swiss tech scene and the demand and attractiveness for developers. It e.g. says "according to The State of European Tech 2019 study, Switzerland is maintaining a steady pace to become European leading technology country."

It then refers to the article "Here’s why Switzerland is a world innovation leader" (https://www.wearedevelopers.com/blog/heres-why-switzerland-i...).

> that doesn't make life sciences a "tech field"

Where does all this wisdom come from?

The context of the GP comments and the whole discussion, it's the "high-tech" in an IT sense of the term. Hence my remark.

The high innovation ranking of Switzerland is most certainly not due to its computer/IT-related innovation. That's the point.

> is most certainly

So you're just assuming.

You are switching the subject.

No. You are. If you have really read the referenced article you must have noticed that its title is "Is Switzerland better than Silicon Valley for software developers?" (which has a rather different meaning than the title of this post, but maybe attracts less clicks) and it is about the Swiss tech scene and the demand and attractiveness for developers. I've answered to the unfounded reproach that Switzerland was "Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges". You then claimed that pharma wasn't high-tech, which is not true and overlooks the fact that a growing number of computer scientists work for life science. From my personal experience I can tell you that there are extremely interesting challenges, and a lot of ground breaking machine learning developments happen there today. It's not enough to just quickly read the headline and then claim some stuff without any basis. Are you Swiss? Do you work in Switzerland? Do you have any relevant experience supporting your claims?

(The reason Google has an office here is because Urs Hölzle studied at ETH at knew people here.)

Not just studied; he is Swiss!

I mean, the name is kind of a giveaway ;)

He made his PhD at Stanford in the nineties and had a company with Bak and others in Palo Alto and still lives there. So no, I don't think that was the reason. And apparently Google values its Zurich location so much that it is constantly being expanded, see e.g. https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/15-jahre-in-der-schweiz-so-sieh.... So obviously it's not just an office.

Nonsense! I’ve been part of the Swiss startup scene for more than a decade and there are plenty of interesting startups and opportunities. If there is a lack of anything, it is technical co-founders that are willing to take a risk. (Working at Google is just too convenient.) In any case, it you are looking for a nice challenge, feel free to consider my latest venture Aktionariat.

Is working in Silicon Valley for some enormous multinational really that intellectually stimulating though?

When I visited Google in Silicon Valley (from Australia), I didn’t get the impression that the work was that more exciting or cutting edge.

But that said, I did notice how run down Silicon Valley and much of the US cities/suburbs are. It did not strike me as a nice place to live.

Honestly, working on stuff at scale lets me tinker and analyze in ways I never got the chance to at university IT scale. You just didn't have the time or the capacity, and the ROI wasn't there.

I fully agree, love your country, have spent two years of my life there and come every time an opportunity pops up.

I speak fluently French, Italian, German and can manage plenty of Swiss German common expressions as well.

Yet, the rules, oh boy, not sure how you will take this, but from my point of view Swiss world of rules makes the northern Germany feel as flexible as a South American country.

When something must be done like A, it is A, not A- or A+, zero deviations.

On the other hand, when speaking to a government employee, you're mostly speaking to someone who can make an actual decision on that matter, and can help you to solve your problem. Yes, there are many rules, but living there I've never had the feeling that this made the country inflexible.

As south European, I think it is a personal matter, it basically boils down to how much one can adapt to living by rules, without the flexibility to bend the rules one is used to in other countries.

There are plus and minus to both approaches, the rules approach favours more the society overall as everyone gets the same, while the flexible approach kind of favours the individual.

Well, drive half an hour by car from southern Switzerland to Italy and you will notice that the road will be lined with garbage heaps on both sides. There are definitely some advantages if people are a bit tidy. And then try to achieve something at an Italian office without losing your mind. You can always negotiate with the Swiss, and there are always compromises.

See, that is a good example of culture shock, I have zero issues negotiating in Italy.

And as mentioned in other answers I enjoyed my time in Switzerland, and come back every time I manage to, so trying to make my point of view without attacking anyone.

> Swiss world of rules makes the northern Germany feel as flexible as a South American country

That is quite unworldly. I worked on large projects both in Switzerland and in Germany. These are totally different cultures. The number of laws and the degree of bureaucracy in Germany is many times greater than in Switzerland (only surpassed by Italy). In Germany everything is forbidden that is not explicitly allowed, in Switzerland it is the other way round. In Switzerland everything can be negotiated; try negotiating with a German official. Good luck with that.

I have lived half of my life in Germany.

Let me guess, you were a child so don't really know what the bureaucracy is like there. Switzerland is actually much more progressive (good luck doingt anything online in Germany!!).

Quite easy, just use the Bürgerbüro online portal.

I lived in Geneva from 26 to 28 years old, as mentioned in other replies, come back to Switzerland every time I manage to, and have several good Swiss friends.

I also had to help a friend of mine newly moved into Baden in 2018 to settle in, so I know what bureaucracy she had to face until she was 100% done with everything and could carry on with her life having a proper bank account, address, mobile phone, internet, new car registration, the whole package.

I strongly agree with you. The country doesn't seem attractive at all to me. I'd rather think of Berlin, Paris or (sadly) London.

As an American immigrant to Switzerland, don’t move here to be on the cutting technical edge. You will be sorely disappointed. It’s a function of societal mentality (slow to change as a way of ensuring enduring stability) and size (fewer people, fairly spread out, only two or three cities big enough to be tech hubs).

I moved here for a lot of other reasons, and I’m very happy with my decision and its benefits, but a startup cutting edge country, it is not. If you want that, try Estonia!

I've heard there's a lot of cutting technical edge in zurich due to the ETH, would you disagree?

Sure, ETH is at the top on university world ranking and there is a long history of innovations and nobel price laureats.

yeah, but I was wondering whether they managed to built a high-tech ecosystem around the ETH. I know that at least google has offices there, but I don't know what it's like in zurich and how much cutting edge high-tech is actually done at these offices.

See e.g. https://ethz.ch/en/industry/entrepreneurs/spinoff.html, https://ethz.ch/en/industry/entrepreneurs/spinoff/uebersicht..., or https://www.technopark.ch/

Why do you think Google and other big companies have large development departments in Switzerland? There are a lot of very well educated and hardworking people, and job satisfaction is high.

yeah, I know. And the ETH graduates are probably top-quality. But the parent poster said that he didn't experience cutting edge technology in switzerland and I wondered whether it's the same in Zurich.

In germany, I've experience that you can excel at one technical property (usually your core product, manufacturing something, designing some material) while also being very conservative in virtually every other dimension. It's different in startups, but I wonder about zurich in general. So I think that both is possible, moving very slow and being very conservative, while on the other hand excelling at one particular thing (where you would need the high-quality ETH graduates). It's usually that IT is not the main focus here (in germany), so you can end up in slowly moving, very conservative, magnitudes behind cutting edge organisation. The swiss are not really known for a silicon-valley kind of attitude. I think it's a mindset and a lot of companies only see IT as cost instead of investment, much less as a driver of innovation. That's why I'm asking.

> he didn't experience cutting edge technology in switzerland

What ever that is supposed to mean; maybe after looking a couple of days with a very narrow focus.

> The swiss are not really known for a silicon-valley kind of attitude

Well, there is no "hire and fire", and there are no garages and cellars that are worth a billion dollars overnight. But there were and still are a lot of innovations in various fields. Also Germany has great engineers and a lot of innovation, but the state weighs much heavier on the companies than in Switzerland.

EDIT: Perhaps the Global Inovation Index would also be worth a look: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Innovation_Index

For the sceptics: do you really think, companies like Roche, Novartis, ABB, Schindler, Logitech, Sonova, Ypsomed, and others don't use or develop cutting edge technology? As you can see Switzerland is on the top of the Global Inovation Index (and no, this index is not issued by Swiss organizations).

Good point. I should have qualified.

ETH is an excellent school—I'd be happy to have an ETH degree! They produce tons of good research in computer science (especially geospatial), material science, and others. I think Google is especially there because of the geospatial workforce (and generally highly qualified technologists).

By "cutting technical edge", I specifically meant 1) large numbers of smart people solving important problems in startups and 2) large numbers of smart people pushing practical technology forward in novel ways. In general, most dev jobs in CH are C++ or Java. I know of a handful of good startups, but not too many. The mentality is generally quite conservative, so most companies do standard technology solutions for standard companies—nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't say you can compare Zürich to Berlin, Barcelona, London, Tallinn, or any of the US startup hubs (and it's not just attributable to population size).

"In God we trust, all others must bring data." (Edward Deming)

See https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2019.pdf, https://ethz.ch/en/industry/entrepreneurs/spinoff/uebersicht..., etc.

That’s a good quote, I shall use it in the future. :)

I never disputed that there’s lots of spin-offs from ETH, but I was unaware of the precise count. It’s higher than I thought. Thanks for bringing the data. However, even with a few dozen startups a year it cannot be termed to a major startup hub. Are there any accelerators, major VCs, or the like in Zürich? I’m not aware of many, if any.

I’m in Ostschweiz, so I don’t know Zürich super well, but here the tech meetups groups for almost everything are < 100 members (not attendees), so I would have to go to Zürich for any real meetups, which are quite small based on group pages, as well.

And don’t get me wrong—I’m not disappointed in or minimizing the amount cool stuff that comes out of Switzerland. I want to see it grow and succeed. It’d be fantastic if Zürich became a major hub in the future. Hopp Schwiiz! :)

Not sure what you mean, but see e.g. https://www.technopark.ch/ or https://ethz.ch/en/industry/entrepreneurs/spinoff.html, or e.g. https://www.computerworld.ch/business/start-ups/foerderprogr...

The last link is what I was looking for, thanks. More startup infrastructure is there than I was aware of.

I’m not certain it changes my overall assessment, though: I wouldn’t chose to move to Switzerland based on its vibrant community of tech startups when compared to other European options. This isn’t to diminish the work being done, and I obviously have more to learn which may change my opinion.

Switzerland being ranked every year in the top 3 most innovative country in the world, you will find a bit of cutting edge techno developed there, however maybe not in your field of expertise.

For instance the number of biotech startup is huge with multiple incubator in Switzerland.

A few of many links: * https://bioalps.org/innovation-enablers/ * https://baselaunch.ch/

Yes, thanks to the sibling comment, I'm more aware than I was when I made my initial comment.

The startup bent seems to be toward cutting edge in hard sciences (bio, materials, etc.), and as a result, most of the startups are outside my typical sphere and interests, so I didn't know where to look for them!

I stand by my original comment that I didn't move here for the startups, and if I were looking for a place to move for a startup ecosystem, I'd probably still look elsewhere, but there is significantly more technical development that's being commercialized than I realized.

I'm sick of seeing titles like this one. Why can't Switzerland simply be Switerland instead of a clone of the Silicon Valley?

We all have our own cultures and different types of innovation can spring from each one of them.

I agree. I never understood the fetishisation of Silicon Valley... it's not the be-all and end-all for everything tech related.

It's a very Silicon Valley-like thing to desire to be different.

Came here to say this.

While I like Silicon Valley, it has its downsides as well. And not everything good for Americans is good for Europeans.

I want to see our own "tech cities" across Europe, every one of them with their own culture, their own lifestyle, their own philosophy, etc. To be successful you don't have to imitate SV on everything.

FWIW: I am a 2nd-time entrepreneur. I bootstrapped a company in Germany from 2004-2011, and sold it to Google then. As part of that I moved to Switzerland. I started another company in early 2018 in Zurich, believing the hype about it being a good place to do business.

I won't go into details publicly, but: If your market and your potential acquirers are primarily in the US, and you think your startup will have a long-term focus in the US, avoid incorporating in Zurich. Go to London, Berlin, Paris, pretty much anywhere but Zurich. If you absolutely have to incorporate in Switzerland, move yourself to a startup-friendly Canton such as Zug. Do not incorporate in Zurich, and do not open an office in Zurich.

My experiences have been resoundingly negative, and I am not the only one - founders just avoid talking about the negative experiences for fear of causing more problems.

If your market will be primarily Switzerland and the immediate neighbors, starting here is likely fine (albeit you will get better price/performance on engineering in neighboring countries).

Feel free to reach out in private.

fyi, there's no private messaging option on HN - people usually post contact details in their profile.

Cool, updated the profile.

I wish.

I hold a citizenship in an EU country (Lithuania) and would love to spend some time working in Europe closer to family. Swiss/EU bilateral agreements would allow me to work there easily, but every time I do some research it seems the (lack of) bureaucracy, compensation, and culture of innovation just pales in comparison to US tech hubs.

Here in the US, I can spin up an LLC by clicking a few buttons on one of the dozen or so online incorporation services for under $100. Cheaper if I wanted to do it myself. I can spin up little side-projects left and right. My day job is pretty run-of-the-mill for US tech standards, but pays more than I could ever dream of in anywhere in Europe (even if I take into account the value of better social services).

At this rate, I don't see any sufficiently impactful changes happening in Europe to make it meaningfully competitive, but I really hope it does.

At least in Switzerland you can somewhere go around with ~20‘000/year in earnings without much bureaucracy at all (not much insurance, easy taxes, ...) and even after that, there‘s no need to register a company. You can work as single-person company longer than you say it‘s a side business. For sure you have to care about insurabce and taxes, but I don‘t see anything wrong with that.

It might be that it‘s different in other countries but from my experience, Switzerland makes it quite easy „for the little man“.

The ease of starting a Limited company in Lithuania is really interesting.

I used to start UK Ltd companies really easily, but with them exiting the EU, the best alternative I've found so far is Ireland or Estonia, but both are somewhat expensive. Although not compared to starting a GmbH in Austria or Germany.

I learned through bitter experience that Malta has some yearly auditing requirements, which make everything more expensive than they first appear.

Can you provide some links or info about going the Lithuanian route?

I realized after posting, I should've specified that for me, "here" is the US. My US-centrism is showing, sorry!

Lithuania is trying hard to make it easier, but they're still leaps and bounds behind the US IMO.

I've started corporate entities in several countries, and Switzerland wasn't exactly hard.

People seem to confuse the cost of doing it with the initial capital required. In Switzerland, as in Germany, there's a little version and a big version, GmbH and AG.

Speaking for Switzerland, you need CHF20K to do the GmbH and 100K for the AG. But you actually only need 50K cash for the AG because it doesn't all have to be paid up.

In terms of legal difference, there isn't really any, according to a couple of my Swiss accountants. It's more that if you risk 100K (it's still at risk even though it's not paid up) your business partners might see you differently. Having said that Google went for the little one.

Now if you are starting a business, chances are you are going to need 20K in some bank account anyway. Even a very small business needs some funds. The cost is simply the notarizing cost, ie the cost of making it official, and whatever your legal guy charges. Not much, and it gets done pretty fast. More than 100USD though, for sure.

The UK was super easy as well. Here you just pay the accountant and he does the Companies House stuff for you. You can probably DIY it to save a couple hundred quid, plus the capital requirement is £1 or some trivial amount.

Other European countries don't make it a whole lot harder. I think the difference is greater in how easy it is to establish your new business as a viable entity. Customers, suppliers need to be open to doing business with you, and that varies a lot across locations and industries.

I’m Swiss, did CS at the University of Geneva and work at AWS in New York.

“The lake is not burning” is my favorite way to describe Switzerland when it comes to software and startups. And everything else, in fact.

> The lake is not burning

I am non-native, but fluent English speaker. Can you please explain what does this phrase mean?

Water is wet is my guess

Swiss French speaker here. This expression is usually used to mean "There is no rush", or "relax we have time". Switzerland is quite slow to change.

Not OP, but it could be a literal translation of an expression in french: "Il n'y a pas le feu au lac", meaning "No need to hurry / There is no emergency"

But there is "Smoke on the water" in Montreux.

> In 2019 Switzerland attracted $ 445 million of investments.

With twice the population of Silicon Valley this alone points to "no". If you add SF and the rest of the Bay Area, the populations become much closer, but the investment ratio is far worse.

Of course the economy here has become rather lopsided over the past 20 years while Switzerland's economy is more diverse. (e.g. I don't think I've drunk local milk since the dairy in downtown Palo Alto closed.)

Off topic, but Strauss brand is fairly local and quality is amazing: https://www.strausfamilycreamery.com/

There is local produce even closer (e.g. half moon bay and San Jose) but they days of watching wheat harvesting next to Intel HQ, or cherry production next door to Cadence HQ are gone. Where Google is now was bean fields I used to cut through after saving my emacs buffer at work.

Not sure which of the many of their offices you are talking about, but the main Googleplex looks to be on a superfund site from previous semiconductor manufacturers - not an ideal agricultural site.

Edit: Link to map: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/toxic-plumes-the-dark-...

Used to live in HMB, but don’t recall a creamery. Definitely some cool small producers in Pescadero still.

"produce" -- I used it in the conventional US sense of non-grain vegetables and fruit, which HMB is full of. I also don't know of any dairies there specifically; I'm sure there were some once but that would have been before my time!

I moved my company into the Landings complex (just off Rengstorff) in the early 90s (SETI was also there!). SGI and then Alza built their HQs on what was a bean field a few years later. Building 42 is where the old SGI complex was; the only remaining SGI building that still looks something like its original form is the Computer History Museum.

Yep, a lot of the valley land is contaminated thanks to semiconductor production and military use. (in the case of the wheat field next to Intel -- I remember thinking "I hope I never eat something made with that wheat!" That particular map won't display in my browser but I wouldn't be surprised if Ames/Moffet leachate perfused the area, including where the googolplex is now. I worked at Ames for a while when it was a military base and the disposition of chemicals in those days was pretty scary. Where the OSH is now (previously, and briefly Sun Headquarters) was the FMC plant making the Bradley Fighting Vehicle and their chem waste could have leaked across 101 and contaminated that area as well.

When I worked in (the city of) Santa Clara about 10 years ago I worried about the water supply because of all the former semiconductor plants. Luckily the city had a map showing the water system. The residential areas were on Hetch Hetchy water but the industrial areas were on well water. Scary! That was the only time I was willing to pay for bottled water.

Sorry didn’t catch the produce part correctly - HMB is amazing for that. The barn/farm stand on Kelly Ave (Andreotti Family Farm) is awesome and very fresh.

Thanks for sharing the history! Looks like 42 is right on top of the bad site. Guessing much like that Intel wheat.

The other problem Bay Area and much of CA have to also deal with is Mercury contamination. Much of that was from the gold rush era. Nasty stuff.

I wonder how much Google skews these statistics. They moved into an enormous new office spaces right in the center of Zurich. I am always surprised that their presence is so huge for a country and city that small.

Zurich has a very good cs university and one of the early google vp’s are from Zurich. Also very good tax situation.

Trust me, there is no such thing as a European Silicon Valley, and there won't be one any time soon.

I hope there won't be one, at the end, what good really came out of Silicon Valley anyway? The good parts can be equated to any other place where innovation takes place, be it in Europe or elsewhere. The rest is tons of crap and speculation.

Many of the items on this list seem questionable to me, but perhaps the ideas first nucleated there. From https://www.siliconvalleyhistorical.org/silicon-valley-achie... :

• Long distance high-voltage transmission

• Amplifying vacuum tube

• First commercial radio broadcast

• Long distance continuous-wave radio transmissions

• Mobile radio systems development

• Klystron tube and microwave

• Radar

• Electronic measuring devices

• Nuclear induction applications

• X-ray microscope

• Traveling-wave tube development

• Silicon crystal-growing

• Programmable hand-held calculators

• Videotape and VCRs

• Development of the junction transmitter

• Linear accelerators for particle physics research and cancer treatment

• Swept-back aircraft wings

• Nuclear magnetic resonance

• Random access computer storage

• Disk drives

• Integrated circuits

• Planar processes

• Lasers

• Semiconductor large-scale integrated memory

• Silicon gate arrays

• Microprocessors

• Light-emitting diodes (LEDs)

• Personal computers

• Open-heart surgery

• Ink-jet printing

• High resolution aerial photography

• Spacecraft heat shields

• Batch processing of micro-machined devices

• Gene-cloning and gene-splicing

• Video games

• Silicon compilers

• Automated semiconductor manufacturing equipment

• Field programmable gate arrays

• Prodigious advances in artificial limbs and sensory aids

• Robotics

• Genetic engineering

• Satellite technology

• 3-D computing

Isn't most of the good stuff from the previous century, before the first tech bubble?

I realize you copied the list but I would argue that radar was not invented in Silicon Valley.

I wonder if Stockholm is the closest? At least in VC per capita. Also really easy to start a company.

My Swedish friend swears by Norway's job market, but then again Norwegian people may do the opposite.

Better wages in Norway, though a more traditional low tech market focused around resources.

They've been trying to diversify for ages but can't comment on the results of that.

Haven't heard of any Norwegian Spotify, Mojang, Kings or Klarnas though.

Better wages sums up most of what I've heard from people living in Sweden. They must be staying in Sweden rather than moving to Norway for a good reason though.

Norway is extremely expensive. I would be surprised if the wage increase is not moot.

The problem with Stockholm is that you'll have to rent a place to stay, which is a nightmare.

The French have a shot at this, if there is political will in Paris. Closest thing to SV in France is Toulouse: a major university; defense and related tech industries; lots of competent world class engineers; and an attractive locale.

Also Sophia Antipolis [1] used to be described as "European SV" but mostly in historical + quality of life contexts. The biggest employer being fat and slow corporate-y Amadeus, it's nowhere near to the startup scene of real SV.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_Antipolis

As someone that studied and lives in Toulouse this I disagree. We have good universities, but the best one is in economics. The whole city works around Airbus. When they aren't doing well the whole city is doing terribly. Most software engineers here work for subcontracting companies that are heavily linked to the aerospace business. Finding different lines of work recently have been really hard due to those subcontracting companies looking for new contracts outside of the space. Unless there's a solid political decision to implement more research facilities outside of the aerospace industry then other companies will start coming. But for now compared to places in the region such as Montpellier I find we're really behind other cities.

Silicon Valley fetishism has to go away at some point.

Sorry! As long as the world's leading consumer and enterprise technology continues to be created there, it won't be going away any time soon.

Then I guess it won't be long until my local government makes bold claims about creating X's Shenzhen.

> Is Switzerland better than Silicon Valley for software developers?

The entire article compares data between Switzerland and other EU countries (the accuracy of which is a whole another topic), and then this is used to compare Switzerland against Silicon Valley?

At least the submitter did a nice job of correcting that in the HN title.

I wonder why they don't mention Doodle, which is probably one of the best-known Swiss-made software solutions.

Personally I use Tresorit (end-to-end encrypted Dropbox alternative), which is also made in Switzerland. And then there's Protonmail of course.

Tresorit comes from Hungary, they just made a business entity in Switzerland to look better from security/privacy perspective. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tresorit#History

My favourite is Luxoft incorporating in Switzerland so instead of "Russian outsourcing sweatshop" they can claim to be "Swiss fintech".

Skype being Swedish money, Estonian (and some Russian) brains does not make it less of an American company.

Currently the only thing leftover from Skype is their logo.

Most of Doodle's open engineering positions are in Berlin. Tresorit seems to be mostly based in Budapest. Honestly a lot of companies with Swiss HQs have the bare minimum presence required to benefit from the low taxes in Switzerland.

Other places that have been described to me as the "Silicon Valley of Europe":

- London - Berlin - Munich - Barcelona - Lisbon - Karlsruhe

And these are only the places I have lived (+ I also lived in SF). Trust me it's pretty much true for none of them.

Silicon Valley probably just means highly paid engineering jobs for those journalists

Even that is only somewhat true for London and Munich

My personal theory is that determination whether a place can become a "Silicon Valley" is the population's attitude to drugs. If a developer can smoke a joint after a tough day or explore his or hers consciousness in other ways, without fear of going to jail and having their life ruined, then that attracts creative people. If you have creative people in one place, it all starts to come together.

Utah would be a counterpoint to this. More and more VC funding every year, yet doesn't have legal recreational marijuana.

Exceptions tend to prove the rule...

One of my friends moved back from the Bay Area to Switzerland with his family. While he's happy that he's close to his family again, there's no question that he went from a place where engineers are at the top of the food chain to one where it's all about bankers and finance.

And the salary reflects that.

There won't be another "Silicon Valley" because the unique conditions of SV didn't happen anywhere else (at least so far).

Which it doesn't mean you can't have competitive or innovative companies in other places. What their differences are w.r.t. SV might be disadvantages but they also might be advantages. (Though the easy financing is one darn good competitive advantage)

But the world (and innovation) is not only startups working on a new web/app thing.

This article seems to want to define "Silicon Valley" in terms of companies starting up and the prospect of employment. But in my opinion, these numbers considered over a short period aren't necessarily a relevant base for comparison.

The majority of startups fails. So for an individual considering the risk of that adventure, it's not only important to prepare for take off, it's also important to make sure the landing will not be too rough. Especially the emergency landing. In the US, entrepreneurship is so ingrained in the culture that the costs and stigmas associated with failure are lower than in many (most?) other places in the world. They're therefore not as big a deterrent.

In order for me to consider Switzerland as a possible alternative to Silicon Valley, I'd have to ask some questions like, how well is the risk of entrepreneurship understood? What happens when the majority of these startups fails in the next 5 years? How willing will entrepreneurs be to try a second time? How many current "second-chance" entrepreneurs (those who've already tried and failed at least once before) are there?

Indeed, thanks to at-will employment, failing as a founder is not a financial ruin.

Well it's for sure the "We make encryption with backdoors valley"

Sadly, no. The bureaucracy of opening and running a business here is staggering (and the minimum starting capital for opening an analog of LLC is more than $20,000, and more than $100,000 for a corporation). Perhaps you have heard that there are few taxes in Switzerland; this is not true (and also a lot of obligatory social security payments for the each employee which are almost impossible to manage without a dedicated company to help running your accounting, which is quite expensive). There are many rich people and investments funds, but barely anyone understands how venture capital works. Switzerland is not a country which attracts risk takers. I tried to build startups here for the last 10 years, and I am exhausted.

Very true. In 1996 I incorporated as a British Virgin Islands offshore exactly because of the upfront capital requirements. It was easier than doing it in Switzerland.

Starting a GmbH theoretically requires 25.000 € in Germany, but you only have to pay in half of that in the beginning. I think in Switzerland it's similar?

If you don't want to invest 5-10 T€ to start a company you can look into Estland's eResidency programme, which enables you to start a limited liability company there, giving you access to the EEA market as well.

It is not about capital, it is about the bureaucracy (and Germany is not the easiest country to open a company, too).

Since a few years you can start a GmbH for 1 €, but in the case of hitting Germany's chapter 11 analog (Insolvenzverfahren) you have to pay up to those 25k€ until limited liability kicks in.

You have to fund only half of it in the case of an AG. For GmbH the 20k are the minimum, although it doesn't have to be cash.

In Germany one can start an Ug and convert to a GmbH later. There is bureaucracy though, almost everything has to be done at a notary, in person. And they will expect you to speak German. Have done it as a non-German speaker though (pre Corona). In terms of the difficulties one has running ones own company succesfully, it does not rank high. But it is easy to complain about I guess.

> Perhaps you have heard that there are few taxes in Switzerland; this is not true

Can you expand? In Germany, the VAT tax ranges between 8% and 19% (temporarily reduced due to Corona). In Switzerland it's between 2.5% and 7.7%. Is it the customs you have to pay for importing things?

I think Switzerland is a nice place to live, but the technology choices are not too exciting. Mainly older tech, not much that is cutting edge. Dependable, reliable, professional, but not interesting like San Francisco!

> The city of Zurich is the largest technology hub with an impressive number of 100,000 registered software developers

That would be impressive indeed, given that it only has a population of 430,000.

Given that the article also mentions a "city of Vaud", I have my doubts...

Having spent several years in Silicon Valley, and moved back to my native Zürich, I find much to like in either place, I have reasons to prefer the latter, but I would NOT recommend coming to Zürich if you're looking to replicate a Silicon Valley experience.

Amsterdam, Copenhagen, and Stockholm would probably be the leading candidates vying for Europe's Silicon Valley, at least as an American looking from the outside. Next to those are the obvious economic hubs where talent exists en masse: London, Berlin, and Paris.

Switzerland? Maybe, there's a lot of tech that crops up there for sure, but much of that is FinTech and certain other specialized areas where there is an advantage to be had under Swiss law or as a result of the country's reputation.

The main thing I would have thought it has in common is being an incredibly expensive place to live.

> In 2019 Switzerland attracted $ 445 million of investments

That's, what, half a startup by SV standards?

How many of the startups in SV are juicero type projects?

If I could add one alternative place would be Vienna, Austria. The tech scene here is growing in a fast pace, even during covid most of the tech companies are still hiring quite a lot and the prospects for 2021 isn't looking bad. The city is full of life, bike and child friendly with a very large international community. I have been living here for the past 4 years and I can already feel the fast pace the tech scene here is following.

Moved here recently, find it great so far. I didn't realize how many foreigners there are in Switzerland. Speaking three languages is normal!

Switzerland is inherently multi-lingual. They have four official languages and there are regions in Switzerland where each of them are predominantly spoken (except for Romansh I guess).

The German-speaking part just happens to be the largest and also where the capital is located.

Don't know why you felt the need to tell me that? Swiss people are in reality not that multilingual, the foreigners are (because they know native+french/german+english language).

Speaking of tech companies, Chatroulette (3m monthly users) is located in Zug, Switzerland and we are hiring. I am the founder. Sorry for spam.

What's your tech stack?

Functional Scala-backend - distributed event driven system FRP/RxJs/React Front end

That sounds very nice.

edit: I just realized that one of my old colleagues might be working for you. Send PavelS my greetings.

Well they outsource a lot of development work to other cheaper EU countries, so no.

Is this some sort of platform, like Upwork, but for German speaking developers? Because it feels that way after I've read all of it, including the jobs listing at the end. Didn't sign up though.

How does one emigrate to Switzerland?

From what I've gathered when I looked into moving to CH (I could be wrong, and for personal/pandemic reasons didn't pursue this avenue), it's very hard to build a long term life in Switzerland and virtually impossible to gain citizenship through anything but marriage or extraordinary circumstances, but YMMV.

If you want to move to Switzerland from the U.S. the easiest thing is to just go there on a 90-day visa, and constantly re-up it by crossing the boarder and coming back. This will work temporarily, and if you want to stay on a permanent basis, the only way I found was to get a non-EU eligible work visa, which requires you to leave the country, apply and get approved, find an employer, and only then re-enter. You cannot just find a job while on a 90-day.

Most emigrants I met in Zurich where employees of multinationals who managed the visa process for them. If you don't work for an international bank, you're second best bet is to go there on vacation and fall in love :P

You can't extend your stay allowance by shuttling across the border every 90 days. There is a 180 day/year cap, exactly to suppress this sort of shenanigans.

Thanks! This makes sense!

And physicists ...

To me, Hanoi is the future of the startup world:

- surprisingly libertarian pro-buisness environment

- super low cost of living

- supportive of expats working for american incorperated companies

- easy visas

- wonderful culture

- great dating life

- safe if you don’t go looking for trouble

- instead of having to qualify for goverment benefits, the goverment controls prices for nessecities for everyone.

- rapidly improving political environment/infrastructure

- very little online censorship compared to China

- China adjacent but resists Chinese influence

People are downvoting you, but this is basically what Obama thought too -- it was half the point of his "pivot". He thought SE Asia was the future. And, he'd know:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_career_of_Barac...

Unlike 99% of Americans, the man had some perspective.

Betteridge's law of headlines applies.

I don't think I've heard of a single one of the "Top Tech Companies in Switzerland" on their chart.

It isn't on the list but how about Logitech.

I'm sure there are interesting technical problems to solve at Logitech, but from the outside it doesn't strike as the sort of company that ambitious young developers are champing at the bit to join. Hell, as a developer SAP seems like a more fun and interesting European "tech giant" than Logitech from the outside, and that is saying something.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com