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Comment by skissane | Hacker News Reader

> Alternate data streams on windows can sort of do this (xattrs on nixen aren't really up to the task) but they are completely non-portable.

On Solaris, xattrs really are up to the task; they are basically Windows alternate data streams by another name. Unlike Linux xattrs, their maximum size is the same as that of the main stream of the file. (Likewise, on macOS the maximum xattr size is the same as that of a file's main stream.)

I think if Linux would lift its limit on maximum xattr size then you would have the same basic function across most major operating systems, just with some differences in API. Then if someone could devise a standard API (even as just a portability layer), your problem would be mostly solved. Just also making sure that tools like cp, scp, sftp, zip, tar, etc, know about the xattrs and transport them. (Which is actually already true for some of those tools on some platforms.)

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I have used python's pathlib to create a common abstraction across ADS and linux xattrs, but have had to stop at the lowest common denominator that is the linux implementation. It is good to know that some of the other nixen don't have the same restrictions because it means there might be a shorter route to interoperability (especially in light of some of the other threads on the linux file system that have popped up over the last couple of days). The second piece of the puzzle is also exactly as you point out, which is xattr support across all the common tools. Many of them have it already, however it is usually not enabled by default, so it is extremely easy for a user to accidentally copy only the main file data. To give an example of the issue, vim's default save implementation copies files in a way that removes xattrs. Thus, even if xattrs can get closer, the fact that they still require tools to implement correct behaviour makes is a bit like the situation with cooperative multitasking.

This infuriates me. There are so many problems I run into, day-to-day even, which could be readily solved if files/folders just had a stringly-typed key-value metadata store of arbitrary size which was portable-ish across file systems. Heck, even just one bytes field I can dump json or some serde into, that doesn't impinge on the actual file bytestream. xattr is close but no cigar.

Instead you either need sidecar files, archives, or custom binary formats.

It's as if the posix filesystem abstraction crystallized a bit too soon (same like tcp/ip)

I'm curious about the specifics of the problems this would solve, having been doing some thinking about what an ideal file system would look like. In particular, is this something you would need primarily for files you create, or existing files created by other people? And, to be fully useful, would it need to allow the attaching of such metadata to arbitrary files/folders regardless of type?

As a sysadmin, this sounds like a mess. Some tools support them, and some don't? Does the alternate stream/fork data show up in `df` and `du`? Can I cat the alternate streams? How many alternate streams are there?

Why not just leave files as a sequence of bytes and let the applications handle this in their file formats? It's not like we don't have standards and libraries there already.

They already aren't a stream of bytes. There's time and permission metadata, which tar, cp, rsync and friends may or may not handle in various ways based on option flags.

I guess it boils down to what is "application data" and what isn't.

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