Comment by blihp | Hacker News Reader

Comment by blihp | Hacker News Reader

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As you noticed, it's not just a RAM issue. The problem is that Linux GUI and apps generally expect laptop/desktop-ish levels of hardware capabilities because that's what they were developed on/for. You're literally running the same code base that the x86 versions run, just recompiled for ARM. Most mobile SoCs, especially the ones that are Linux-friendly in terms of being open enough to be viable, are not even remotely that. On iOS and Android, widely used apps such as browsers are extensively optimized for mobile.

On the Pinephone, and all other ARM-based Linux devices, we're still running applications like web browsers that were written expecting to run on multi-core I/O monsters with lots of RAM, beefier GPUs etc. (the main exception being the main GUI shell... it would be so much worse if you had to boot the phone into a full Gnome/KDE environment) We're still in the late stages of getting the pile of software that is a typical Linux distro running at all on a mobile device. Then assuming these devices get enough traction, you'll start to see more effort put into mobile-optimized software.

> The problem is that Linux GUI and apps generally expect laptop/desktop-ish levels of hardware capabilities because that's what they were developed on/for.

I remember running x11 and Java w/swing on 8MB 486 laptop... So something is off if multiple cores at 30-100 times the frequency can't run a gui?

Yep. But on mobile, Linux seem to run fine on the n900 and Ubuntu Phones.

The FreeRunner and Zaurus were sluggish, but they’re also on hardware that’s about 15 years old

My Nokia N9 ran a Debian derivative quite well. Gosh I miss that phone.

I have an old 32-bit machine from like 2005 with 2GB of memory running MATE Desktop that Firefox sails on, and that you can open several tabs on without it being a problem.

Yeah, it's obviously software related issues ... rather than having so many different distros running on it, it would be far more impressive to me if there was an demonstrable clear focus on improving performance!!

Relatedly, I've had a much better experience with Chromium than Firefox on my Pinebook -- I'm willing to bet this is because of Google's investment in Chromebooks.

Hmmm great points. Is this a "call for mobile versions" of classic Linux programs in a way?

Definitely... that's part of the reason I chime in when this topic comes up. Having done both Linux and mobile development, I don't believe that the entirety of the answer is going to be 'just throw a more powerful SoC in the device'. Sure, that will help to a degree in some areas but there is a lot of work that has been put into iOS and Android to achieve a balance between battery life and performance that most developers who have only worked in/on Linux haven't appreciated. Which is understandable since it wasn't 'their' problem... now with the Pinephone/Librem 5, it is.

Something I have found worthwhile has been listening to the UBports podcast over the last 6 months or so. They really do seem to be 'getting it' faster than most re: what's left to be done. That's partly because they're in the rather unique position of coming from a place of having the Android kernel (which isn't just a vanilla Linux kernel) do a lot of things for them (i.e. UBports on Android phones) and now that they're running on bare metal (i.e. UBports on Pinephone) with (mostly) the same code base they are able to see 'oh, yeah... the kernel and/or apps need to be able to do Y' in order to replicate the functionality they get on Android phones.

UBports relies on 2014-era Ubuntu-specific software that even Ubuntu moved away from. Consequently, I expect a lot of UBports to bit-rot before its maintainers can make it a reliable and competitive option. Mobian's stack isn't what I would have liked (it is a lot of unoptimized GNOME libs), but at least it seems to have enough corporate backing for development to keep going.

Yeah, both projects have their challenges. It's been good to see them, as well as the Librem developers, working with each other to advance their respective projects where it makes sense.

Just curious, what corporate backing are you referring to? I hadn't heard that before.

Historically so much of the GNOME tech stack which Mobian is based on, has been developed by Red Hat employees.

Is it possible the Raspberry Pi ecosystem could move things forward for ARM based linux devices? I know they aren’t mobile, but it is a strong ecosystem with some traction.

In a sense it already has. I suspect the reason that Linux ARM support is as good as it is currently has a lot to do with devices like the Raspberry Pi. In 2010 (i.e. before the Pi) I was using a BeagleBoard-xM and things were both rough and spartan. Today the ARM packages in the repos are nearly at parity and things work much better.

However, the Pi has never gotten much beyond being a forky port of Linux software (back then they had to: they were an arm6hf device in an arm7hf world) and since they seem determined to stay forked (i.e. they no longer need to be a fork, but rather seem to want to be), I don't expect much more from the project in terms of broader Linux enhancements. I'd love to be proven wrong on this.

In that regard pine64 is better, they attempt to get things upstream.

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