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Comment by donor20 | Hacker News Reader

It's amazing to me how many folks seem to have no clue about what folks value in the apple ecosystem.

Call folks fanboys (I use windows / linux all day for my job by choice).

Do your "solved problem" bluetooth headphones allow EASY audio sharing when the kid is sleeping and you want to watch something with your wife? These are two bluetooth devices on same audio stream.

Does your solved problem bluetooth headphones RELIABLY connect to your current device (without having to unpaid with another device). That is game changing.

The problem is, folks have listened to folks like you so many times and gotten BURNED so many times. Oh, it "should" work you say. Total BS at least 20% of the time.

I won't buy the max'es because I have no need for something that nice. But the $159 for the airpods? Slam dunk.

You should go back and listen to the criticism of the airpods when they came out - overpriced, stupid, whatever. Then check out sales numbers.

Do that again with the apple watch maybe? Started slow, but I'm curious what their top competitor is by $ revenue - they have just improved and improved.

Do that again with the ipod?

Do that again with ballmer and the iphone?

Do that again with the actually pretty cheap M1?

View on HN

Go ahead and call me a fanboy but... Apple really nails the "it just works".

I'm a software engineer, and I'm happy to get my hands dirty with some code. But when it comes to my devices, I really don't want to waste my time trying to figure out why this or that device, doesn't pair with, or work well with, my other device.

Apple just does this better than anyone else.

I recently got an Apple watch and the setup process was sublime. Pairing with all my other devices, was effortless. Instantly my watch was "mine" with everything I need on it.

The LTE setup was mostly painless too. There was a bug in the process that was on Verizon's end, but other than that, getting my phone paired to my number was a breeze.

The pairing with my phone, and my mac, is what makes this whole ecosystem special. It just works, and it works pretty damn well. Yes, you can get most of this functionality on a windows or linux machine, with an android phone, airpod replicas, and an android based smart watch but the fluidity of the apple integration is unmatched.

This is what (some) people are willing to pay more for.

I don't have much experience with Apple stuff, but recently I was tasked with getting a Macbook onto the most recent OS revision.

I actually never managed to do it, and had to call for backup. In order to eventually do it, this other person had to install multiple updates, each of which seemed to only be accessible from some different piece of UI, and a lot of the process seemed to trial and error and dead-ends.

I don't think Apple stuff "just works" nearly as well as people claim it does.

No, and with the update process it really shows.

Because Microsoft has had to pay so much attention to it - and maybe Apple has not - the Windows update process is at the very least far more informative about what’s going on - status of installation before and after any reboot. Updating OS on wife’s MacBook seems like comparatively opaque process. Which is fine if things “always work”, but they don’t.

Yeah I'm a MacOS fanboy, but it really irked me when they got rid of the (hard to find but extremely useful) log output during OS updates a few major versions back. It saved me a lot of time once when it showed that it was backing up files that I didn't care about. Now there is no option to view the log during installation.

I've been fortunate to never run into any failed updates (and I've done many) but as they remove features like this and 32 bit support, I'm looking at other options for my next machine.

Having performed every OS update from OS X Jaguar (10.2) to macOS Big Sur, I'm surprised by your experience. macOS releases have always been complete and not in place upgrades over previous versions.

Once the OS releases became free and were no longer distributed on physical media there was a time when releases would be downloaded from the App Store. OS updates have moved from a dedicated Software Update app, to the App Store app and now into System Preferences. For I'm not sure how long, OS installations have been effectively click and approve the license with no other input required for the past decade (and with increasingly less information displayed during the install process).

I've recently installed OS X 10.4 Tiger (from 2005) and Windows 8 Pro, both from original media to blank drives, the OS X installation was much less frustrating (most notably because I didn't have to dig up a license key).

I wish I had taken screenshots or photos or something. Then at the very least, the Apple gallery could tell me why I was doing it wrong.

New versions of OS X and macOS have been released as full versions, but in OS X (ie 10.##) the App Store and System Preferences methods are absolutely in-place upgrades. Big Sur is actually a full system update via any method.

"For I'm not sure how long, OS installations have been effectively click and..." agree to legal contract titled 'Terms and Conditions' that, if anyone read them, would clarify a TON of technical misconceptions and speculations (but ironically does not provide much legal clarity).

I've recently installed OS X 10.10 - macOS 11.0 dozens of times each with no eyes or hands, and at least one of the people involved was frustrated every single time. People shouldn't have to have experience installing every release of the last fifteen years to install the latest without struggling.

Maybe if you stay in the ecosystem. I used an end of 2013 Macbook Pro at work that was bought for a research project. Latest hardware at the time. Had all kinds of problems connecting it to my Android phone. Apple "just works" is a myth. I have had as many problems with Apple hardware as with most other hardware. The chances that some random device will "just work" is probably highest for Windows 10. I'm saying that as a Linux user (by choice) and sometimes forced Windows 10 and OSX user.

I also recall some issues when developing Arduino stuff because of the USB connection to the Arduino.

Definitely referring to "in ecosystem" here.

If you want the best platform for connecting random vendors together, I would probably go with Windows/Microsoft.

If you want the best platform for seamless vertical integration nothing is better than Apple. That's why people get so excited about new Apple products. It's a new shiny toy that they know will work excellently within their ecosystem.

If you want the best platform for connecting random vendors together, I would probably go with Windows/Microsoft.

I’ve have $10 Bluetooth earphones from CVS and Walgreens and have never had an issue using them with my iPhone or iMac.

As long as the no-name stuff follows the specs, it just works in the Apple ecosystem.

>Maybe if you stay in the ecosystem.

Not to discount your experiences, but I use FreeBSD, Windows, MacOS, iOS, and Android devices, professionally and personally, and I don't have many problems getting these devices to talk to each other.

>Had all kinds of problems connecting it to my Android phone.

MacOS doesn't have native MTP support. You can use a third party tool on MacOS or an SMB client on Android.

"It just works" until the glued-in battery expires

Or:

* Until they start rattling (https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/30/airpods-pro-rattling-crack...)

* An automatic update you can't roll back makes noise cancellation worse (https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/17/21069953/apple-airpods-pr...)

* They don't pair, or only one of them pairs, or they don't pair with each other (I personally have these three cases all the time)

Apples marketing department just works.

until the glued-in battery expires

Which one is the high-end, comparable non-Apple model that I can slap a pair of AA batteries in?

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Well I like my Bose headphones, which use a single AAA battery but they are corded. Wireless anything is a hard no for me due to poor experience with it. I know a lot of people disagree.

Wireless anything is a hard no for me

So why are you even posting in a topic about a pair of wireless headphones? You're not the market. You have no recent experience with similar products. What was your point?

I loved my AirPods. Then the batteries gave up the ghost, and I was left with small, expensive, probably toxic electronic garbage. It ruined the brand for me and I can't imagine buying another pair of AirPods.

While it sucks that your batteries are bad, Apple will recycle the toxic electronics.

But at least it’s small? I mean, one dead laptop is the equivalent of many lifetimes worth of AirPods in terms of waste.

Of all the things that could be disposable this seems like the least concerning. A Tesla contains orders of magnitudes more plastic, electronics, and batteries that will one day be junk and you will go through maybe 3 sets of AirPods before you trade in for a newer model EV?

Cars in general are pretty wasteful, even outside of the manufacturing process. I'd be surprised if Teslas wasted more raw 'energy' when totaled compared to the waste caused by extracting, refining, transporting, and then burning oil and all the human labor that goes into that.

They don't, only a fraction of a typical car's lifetime emissions come from its manufacturing process.

There are orders of magnitude more consumer devices than cars.

Surely it will be possible to replace them in repair shops? Not for the home gamer obviously, but neither are screen repairs - and I’m really happy with my third party screen repair.

My AirPods also lack battery capacity now, to a degree that it’s annoyingly short. I accidentally came over a second pair, but yeah a new pair of earphones every two to three years sounds expensive to me.

Problem is, they work so spectacularly well otherwise that I don’t know how that I could stand anything else. Part of this is that Apple seem to intentionally make other headsets work less well. For example by not routing calls through the headset by default, such a joke.

There was an article on HN recently about someone who took apart their AirPods. The battery was glued in, and not possible to remove and replace.

An even larger issue is that taking it apart at all requires destroying the device.

I've seen people take apart them on YouTube for silly mods before, should surely be possible? Maybe with a heatgun?

Just checked. Yes, you can.

Out-of-warranty battery replacement is $49.

If batteries last only a year and there is no third-party alternative, this is a subscription.

Why would they last only a year?

Others have said so elsewhere in the thread.

I feel I should note that it's $49 each. Since the pair is presumably getting similar battery wear, it's likely that this is in-practice a $100 fee.

That is so Apple, I can't stand it.

Umm.

- Do an in warranty battery replacement (within 1 year)

- Pay a repair shop or apple for a new battery.

- Apple runs one of the most comprehensive recycling and trade-in programs out there. Every store offers both trade-in value for devices that have it and free recycling for those that don't.

https://www.apple.com/recycling/nationalservices/

- They will send you a fedex label if you want to fedex in your airpods for recycling if you are too lazy to actually go to a store.

People helping the environment are out there doing it, and others sit on HN too lazy to take even the minimal steps to reduce their impact.

And no, other companies you buy your totally wireless bluetooth headphones from do not make all this easier, but MUCH MUCH harder.

That "warranty battery replacement" is almost certainly going to be giving you a new pair of AirPods.

I think this is partially because they just elect not to support anything that would make it too hard to do that.

Everything on my Apple Watch just works, but I can do much more things with my 8 year old android smartwatch.

What sorts of things can the old watch do that the Apple Watch cannot?

I have a different take on this. I'm an apple machine user. I work on an iMac Pro everyday and have used mac/ios for over a decade. But i've also extensively used Android, Windows, Linux etc extensively.

From what I've experienced it is true that when using apple with apple, it just works. that is true and i won't dispute that. they own the ecosystem so they can handle the integration well, obiously. But the opposite is also true. When using apple with non apple, it (sometimes) just doesn't work or works poorly. When i use the same device on Windows or Android (linux is a different beast), it just works when it won't with iOS or Mac. and sometimes i just want to use a brand thats not apple...

I think for many apple users these days, they believe that Android/Windows still have the problems they faced back in 2009 and havent extensively used either since switching.

Android pairs newer bluetooth devices essentially the same way apple pairs airpods now and windows doesnt still have all the issues from windows vista that made them switch in the first place and has support for way more devices than apple ever will.

I'm not trying to make the point that one is better than the other, my point for apple users is that the experience on windows/android isn't as bad as they think it is and my point for windows/android users is that you're not missing out on much or anything at all from the apple ecosystem.

Buy devices that fit your use case and budget. its as simple as that.

I think you've nailed it. I also made this observation. So many time I'll be talking to another dev about macOS v. linux for example, and they'll say something like, "I don't want to have to compile my kernel" or they'll describe something that makes it clear they haven't tried any Linux distro in a long time. I'll usually ask, "when was the last time you tried it?" and at that point they'll usually realize what they're doing and say something like, "It's been probably 15 years, maybe things are better now?"

Yes, things are better. If I compared the first iPhone to an Pixel 4, the iPhone isn't going to compare nicely. It's always worth making sure you are comparing apples to apples (no pun intended ;-))

I've recently given Linux another try, for use on a machine meant as a media server, and also to drive my family "video call station" (i.e., combine big TV, webcam and a bluetooth audio widget with mic and speakers so that the kids can talk to their grandparents in COVID times). Went with the most main stream distro, Ubuntu 20.04.

Result: couldn't get the Bluetooth conference widget working. Googled around for hours and tried all kinds of things, including compiling and installing kernel modules and replacing the bluetooth stack. Nothing worked. No, this is not an exotic non-standard protocol, it's a standard one (I think aptX or so? sorry, forgot the details again already; but I googled around and found lots of people with similar issues, and then many "solutions", none of which worked; see above)

Anyway, I am back to plugging in my MacBook each time we want to video conference, and will soon install Windows on the media server (no matter how much I hate the thought).

I really want to use Linux for this kind of stuff, but it's 2020 and I can't get a Bluetooth widget working that works flawlessly on various Macs, Windows machines, iPhone, iPad and an Android phone.

So while things may be better, they are still far from where they could be, I am afraid.

> I've recently given Linux another try, for use on a machine meant as a media server

Your media server is doing a lot more than serving up music/movies/tv isn’t it? If not, it’s hard to go past Plex or Kodi.

Is video calling a thing that people call on a media server for?

I’d be airplaying to the tv, but that’s going the Apple route.

With "media server" I generally meant: "device hooked up to the speaker and AV receiver for video playback, couch surfing, perhaps the occasional game (mostly via emulators).

Yeah, adding the microphone and camera is going beyond that, but it's convenient to use the computer already hooked to the TV instead of, you know, hooking up yet another one. Also, how does Airplay give me access to the camera mounted on top of the TV (an old phone, BTW)? Also, how is that relevant for my comment at all? :-)

Airplay can share a screen and through that it can share a FaceTime call - or at least I thought it could and Googling suggests it can. This entirely depends on your ‘old phone’ being an iPhone.

www.macrumors.com/how-to/mirror-facetime-call-apple-tv-airplay-2-smart-tv/amp/

> Also, how is that relevant

It isn’t particularly, I’d just never heard of a media server doing video chat and was wondering about it.

I'm far from a Linux proponent but if I were you I'd try to just add a regular 3.5mm mic and use the TV speakers.

But yeah, much much simpler solution to just install Windows on it.

I tried Linux recently (Ubuntu, I believe it was 19.10 but might've been 18.04 lts). Within minutes of booting I was searching for answers to questions that one should never have to ask (specifically, it was something to do with sound - it wasn't outputting or it was going over HDMI instead of the plugged in Aux Jack.) Linux may have gotten better, but it feels just as unfinished and confusing to me as it did 20 years ago when I first booted knoppix.

Oh it’s plenty obtuse, but you can get a lot working in a very reliable fashion. My daily driver is a Mac but Ubuntu is great for messing about - it really is baffling how simple things can turn into hours of pain though.

I am super excited to be jumping back into Linux as of this month. But I will say, even though the issues are different, I still have a lot of issues. Things do not "just work." Some of that is simple expectation setting.

With Linux, you know that something can work if you just give it enough elbow grease. The same is true on macOS, but the ecosystem does not tempt you unless its something you actually need. On Linux, the ecosystem says, "oh, that weird thing you want to do you? YES! You can do it! It's normal! Go for it!" And then you do, and you have issues, and everyone is like "oh that sucks but also you were trying to do a weird thing." The blessed path is less clear.

Have taken the blessed path on Ubuntu 20.04LTS with a Lenovo workstation, however on updating the bootloader spontaneously decided to Bork itself. Could possibly try and fix it, however this is not something I want to mess with right now so currently using WSL v2 and Docker on Windows 10 and not having any problems. It is nice to be able to add 2/4/8gb of storage and 128gb of ram for dirt cheap, something that is not possible with a mac though.

> they'll describe something that makes it clear they haven't tried any Linux distro in a long time.

I use Linux for work.

In Ubuntu 20 air pod pros still don’t pair properly - I can use the earphones but not the headset microphone.

Then there are minor annoyances like plugging in an external monitor and keyboard to a closed laptop (thinkpad) and not having it wake up (need to open and close the case), or closing the case but then the power management doesn’t work properly so if it’s not plugged in to power, then when I open it the next day the battery is drained and the laptop has shutdown - losing any unsaved state.

Finally (and this is the main one preventing me from using Linux on my personal laptop) Chinese fonts on Linux are awful. Not only are the default fonts ugly but applications do a poor job of rendering them, often getting baselines offsets between subsequent characters wrong, making characters on the same line jump around.

It’s altogether a subpar experience especially compared to macOS.

> In Ubuntu 20 air pod pros still don’t pair properly - I can use the earphones but not the headset microphone.

Do you really blame Linux over Apple for that? Bluetooth on Linux isn't great, that's totally true, but a big source of problems is the device makers. They often test against only the system they are targeting, and leave the rest. Nearly every bluetooth implementation has issues, but the Linux one is never tested/developed with like others.

> Then there are minor annoyances like plugging in an external monitor and keyboard to a closed laptop (thinkpad) and not having it wake up (need to open and close the case), or closing the case but then the power management doesn’t work properly so if it’s not plugged in to power, then when I open it the next day the battery is drained and the laptop has shutdown - losing any unsaved state.

I agree, this is insanely stupid. By all means I don't think things are perfect yet, but they are definitely better than they used to be. There are also easy things you can do to avoid these things, such as sleeping your laptop from the Gnome widget (or just run `systemctl suspend -i`) and it works every time. just open the lid to resume working. It's annoying that you have to do that for sure, but in my opinion learning simple workflow changes like that aren't a big deal in exchange for the FLOSS aspects, but everyone is different. Choice is what makes things great!

> Do you really blame Linux over Apple for that?

I don't blame anyone, and I understand the reasons, but at the end of the day I still can't use devices I can use everywhere else, and I'm reminded of that daily when I need to plug wired headphones in instead.

Power-management issues I've learned to work around - but again is something that requires regular actions/changes in behaviour that serve as a continual reminder that there are issues.

Chinese font issues I've given up on entirely and I just have the UI in English.

Don't get me wrong, macOS has plenty of issues too, and it feels like the overall software quality has been in a gradual state of decline for at least a decade, but it doesn't have the same continual reminders of issues that I get when using Linux, and the fonts always look nice regardless of language.

On earphones I reserve my judgement since my Sony 1000XM2 works really well and I don't have advanced needs like switching devices constantly or sharing the audio with another person.

On desktop OS or smartphone I cannot agree with this sentiment though. I used Arch Linux (arguably the best Linux experience I've had by far) on Thinkpad for 3 years and used Nexus/Pixel for 5+ years. Starting from last year I finally had enough and switched back to Macbook + iPhone. God were the devices much, much reliable and my life much easier. At least I didn't have to worry about random stuffs like Bluetooth disconnection, lack of proper HiDPI support or the camera taking 5 seconds to start/simply freezing.

I recently had an SSD failure and tried using Ubuntu 20.10 to fix my (heavily tweaked to get things mostly-working) older Ubuntu installation. After many hours fiddling with startup settings I still cannot get the live USB to boot to anything other than a black screen. This is a ~2008 graphics card with mature open source drivers. I can get a console if using safe graphics mode but then no network connectivity either. Who knows about sound, haven't got there yet. All the same issues as 15-20 years ago.

When I was last using this machine regularly, most biannual upgrades broke one of these three things anyway (and, no: the tweaks were not obscure things that caused the breakage, and several failed attempts were made to revert them, report them, or look into the causes, and they obviously don't affect the live USB).

Nowadays we can switch a device connect to headphone by connecting from the device. It's not good as like Apple's proprietary solution, but the rest of the world is also improving since 2010. I also like NFC but it's less adopted.

My Sony headphones and cheap phone have NFC but even expensive laptops don't.

Or simpler to buy from a brand I trust?

Seriously- who is more likely to put app ads in my start menu (candy crush and friends) when I pay for the ‘pro’ version of their os? Apple or windows?

Can you guarantee my Samsung TV won’t start showing me ads? Hint - they already do.

My next Samsung smart phone from Verizon won’t have trash bloat ware on it and won’t prompt me endlessly for Samsung pay?

That I can get an item fixed easily at any of their retail stores?

Sure - stuff out there works - but figuring out the perfect phone carrier / phone provider for example is annoying. Where is download boost on Verizon? Oh, it’s disabled.

Even apples phone experience is much more consistent across all carriers. Why these other folks bundle 10 Verizon and another batch of junk themselves as user value enhancing boggles my mind

I got 3 ads in the Settings app when upgrading to my new iPhone 12: for Music, Games and TV I think.

Shame on you, Apple.

Yeah, it seems Apple has figured out the way to make people accept their ads and upselling - brand everything Apple.

> Android pairs newer bluetooth devices essentially the same way apple pairs airpods now

This isn’t really the part of Apple’s Bluetooth that I appreciate. What I find immensely useful is when you want to switch the headphones from one device to another. Apple’s solution isn’t 100% accurate, but on any given day, it’s common for me to switch my AirPod Pros from my phone to my watch to my laptop to my Apple TV. Before I switched over to all Apple gear, I needed to either spend 5 minutes re-pairing my headphones or (what I really did) have dedicated Bluetooth headphones for my TV.

This is the major benefit for me... the seamless switching, not the pairing.

My experience with Apple recently has been quite rocky. I recommended a family purchase a MacBook Pro but they ended up getting bit by the keyboard bug, which basically compromises the entire experience really badly.

I tried the Apple smart home ecology on the argument of privacy and I’m getting frustrated at the disparity in quality vs Google. For example, there’s a noticeable probability of multiple devices picking up AND redundantly entering a command, like adding a reminder. Often, often times, another Siri device will take over from the local one in front of me and say, “Sorry, I can’t do that,” even though it could if the right device picked up.

Apple is still a top recommendation but they aren’t a no brainer. The more you use your brain the less you end up on the bad side of the Apple ecology, like with the sticky keyboard issue.

It's not true. Take the Apple TV vs Roku. Roku is so easy to use, so reliable, similar capabilities. They just nail it. Apple TV's remote is so confusing error prone and unintuitive my wife refuses to touch it, and I make mistakes with it much more than Roku. We put up with it only for the exclusives (Apple TV, HBO Max) and Apple only features (Apple device mirroring)

My household has the opposite experience. Partner hates the roku remote and interface and vastly prefers the appleTV.

Same, everything else feels… "stiff" and somewhat clunky compared to an ATV4K, and the next best option Roku has serious privacy issues.

I will say though that oddly, the Siri remote got a little worse in its ATV4K revision — most notably, triggering a jump back/forward 30s is much harder on the newer remote. As a result I've paired my old original Dev Kit remote with the ATV4K, which works beautifully.

Some Roku devices now have Apple device mirroring through AirPlay 2:

https://support.roku.com/article/360057488733

Apple TV is also available as a Roku channel:

https://channelstore.roku.com/details/a20e3c294993147c6cda43...

Roku does not yet have HBO Max, but the two services are currently negotiating a deal to make it happen:

https://www.cnet.com/news/hbo-max-exec-on-roku-deal-we-will-...

In the meantime, HBO Max can be streamed to Roku from an Apple device via AirPlay 2:

https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/roku-apple-airplay-4k-...

Of course everyone's experience is different but Apple's software is pretty far from "Just Works". Especially their macos with the recent update to Big Sur as well as multiple OS updates during Catalina. In the 1 year I have owned a 16 inch macbook pro it's bricked on me twice because of their "Just Works" OS updates and had to take it to the Apple store to get it reset. Not to mention the issue of not being apple to open non-apple apps at one point due to a bug on their side. I have had issues with Windows and Linux, but nothing close to bricking my machine. It seems to me Apple's way of doing business is if it's not an Apple product, we have no interest. They really want to lock you in which is fine cause they are a business but that mindset is extremely dangerous in my opinion.

Yeah, I didn't have the "it just works" experience. The last iPhone I owned was an iPhone 3s, and an update nearly bricked it by slowing everything down on the phone.

I guess "it just works" as long as you keep upgrading to their latest. That's true with deprecations in every product line, but it's not something I'd pay a premium for, especially when it doesn't exist.

iOS 4 murdered my iPod touch too. RIP

I had a hell of a time with the floppy drive on my IIgs, too.

Apple just works until it doesn’t. I have used Apple products for many years but a a perfectly fine 2013 15” MBP dying on me because of bad RAM has made me reconsider. That’s something that should be a cheap and quick replacement

I assume it died a while back? A laptop dying after 7 years seems rather better than one could reasonable expect.

It was in excellent condition other than that, so I don’t think age matters. Do you think it’s reasonable to buy a whole new car because the tires are worn out?

Apple really nails the "it just works".

I'm all-in on Apple, and I don't see that changing. And generally, the above has been my experience too. But I recently bought a wireless magic keyboard and trackpad for a standing workstation with a monitor in the corner of our living room. I'd expected to be able to switch between our two laptops seamlessly so that whoever happened to need it could use it, but no - you have to explicitly unpair the keyboard and trackpad from one computer before re-pairing it to the other. That means finding it wherever my wife left it, turning it on or at a minimum logging in and all the rest of the dance, every single time. It drives me insane.

I have a shitty $50 brand x bluetooth speaker that does it better than this. I want to listen to some music, I pair with it. My wife wants to listen to some music later? She just pairs to it and she's done. It doesn't seem that hard to get right.

Could be bad design, or could be good shared-space / privacy-focused design. Letting someone else yoink a connected input device in a hypothetical coffee shop or office with 50 people nearby is a recipe for annoyance or even for privacy-invasion. (Even if it only lets you grab devices you've previously been paired to, that's still an easy thing in an office where a lot of the equipment is more communal.)

My recollection is that the magic keyboard / trackpad insta-pair if you connect them via wire. Would plugging them each in to a lightning cable for a second to switch their allegiance work better for you than manually unpairing? Obviously it's still a hassle.

My recollection is that the magic keyboard / trackpad insta-pair if you connect them via wire.

I didn't know that, thanks - I'll try that. It's still a pain, but less so than having to track my wife's computer down.

It does beg the question of why I'm going wireless at all, of course.

New Logitech master mouse I bought does it really well. One button under to switch between three computers. That said... I really hope we can move away from Bluetooth, it’s the least reliable and most errorprone thing on todays computers.

I have a Logitech k380 which in my opinion does this in an intuitive way.

There’s 3 dedicated buttons for paired Bluetooth devices (fn + 1,2,3) and hitting them just pairs to the device. And you can reassign a button to another device by holding fn+1,2,3.

When you turn it on it pairs to the last device it was paired to.

I think Apple are long gone from "it just works" lately

just having 2 apple id's (work vs home) completely breaks most services and devices for me. i wish it "just worked" though.

I think people do under-value the ecosystem that Apple has built with their devices. The kind of audio sharing you describe is really nice and is legitimately something Apple built (as far as I know). I think Apple often prices their devices on the high end, but that's fine.

That said, I think your description of other bluetooth devices is overly pessimistic. I've had no problems finding bluetooth devices that do basic bluetooth things (connecting, xmitting audio, swapping devices) well. For that reason I basically never recommend Apple products as if they are the only ones to "get it right."

Apple is a premium brand. Folks should consider them if they want a premium product, but it's silly to act as if their competition doesn't offer the same basic functionality for much better prices.

Who do you trust (brand wise) to get it right. Does someone get it right? I'm sure, but my guess is if you did brand survey's, people would KNOW that apple gets it pretty right, and most players don't.

That's partly because apple ignore HN. I need a modulare phone that I can ugprade the ram on. Apple is ignoring you, they seal their phones up with epoxy so they are pretty darn waterproof. But for normal users, this is a positive.

They call out fake third party batteries. OH NO says HN. For normal users, a plus again.

They offer BY FAR the longest and most reliable operating system support. First gen ipad pro's STILL have value! My old android tablet has been unsupported since the DAY I bought it.

Or built in junkware and adware. If I buy a samsung TV can I be pretty sure it won't datamine my viewing habits? Even top competitors turn out to be basically scammers. Will you guarantee me that samsung won't jam ads onto my TV after I buy it?

"Towards the end of 2019, owners have started to voice their dissatisfaction with larger, increasingly obtrusive, and unrelated ads showing up on their Samsung TVs. These include ads for canned beans or discount supermarkets" - this is on $2,500+ frame art TV's etc.

It turns out, despite your claims, these other very large companies selling very expensive items are scamming folks to often, it only takes getting burned ONCE by this to just reduce your circle of trust dramatically.

Is there a perfect bluetooth device out there? Sure. If I go through the amazon listings will I find that device? I doubt it. If I buy from apple will I get it? I think so.

The price of these headphones is ridiculous, I don't defend that. If they are able to sell them at this price I'll be a bit surprised. But overall, they have built user trust up pretty high.

That's a... very specific perspective.

> They call out fake third party batteries. OH NO says HN. For normal users, a plus again.

They make it impossible to replace any component even if the user knows exactly what they're doing. Not, "warning: non-certified component added", but "haha, you thought you could use 3rd party parts? enjoy your brick"

> They offer BY FAR the longest and most reliable operating system support. First gen ipad pro's STILL have value! My old android tablet has been unsupported since the DAY I bought it.

Right, which is why we keep hearing from people who move their macbooks to Linux after Apple drops support. And why Apple technically supports phones forever while releasing OS updates that tank performance.

> Or built in junkware and adware. If I buy a samsung TV can I be pretty sure it won't datamine my viewing habits? Even top competitors turn out to be basically scammers. Will you guarantee me that samsung won't jam ads onto my TV after I buy it?

I don't own any such device to test, but I notice that https://www.imore.com/how-change-privacy-settings-apple-tv talks about a "Limit Ad Tracking" option on Apple TV.

Right to repair is a real issue that needs to be dealt with but if we consider some other points, when you do an unofficial screen or battery replacement, where does that screen actually come from? I'm not aware of any companies manufacturing brand new iphone displays. So my only thought is they must be mostly from stolen phones and for batteries, also stolen and second hand batteries.

When I have done my own battery replacements on android phones I have found that half the time the battery I got off ebay is already stuffed probably because it was in someones phone for 2 years already.

We need to consider how much use letting users replace their own screens is compared to how much use having users not get their phone stolen is. Perhaps there could be a system where the part ids are tied to an apple id and the original id has to authorize a transfer but then all the displays on ebay would still not work because they are stolen.

Agree with basically all of this. People put on their rose tinted glasses when thinking about products they own and ignore the issues.

I have completely had it with Samsung consumer level devices. Every single one I have had has come with bloatware, discontinued support after a short time and seems to slow down real bad after a few years.

The last samsung product I own is a TV which was perfectly fine on day one but now its so slow I find it hard to change channel or volume and turning it on shows a shitload of HUD bloatware about random streaming services.

And when you point out any of these issues people go "Oh its not a problem you just open the registery editor" or "you pop the back of your tv open and unplug the antenna and then flash this file on to the spi chip"

> if they want a premium product

And don't care if all their other products have to be from Apple. You don't buy "one" Apple product which "just works". You have to buy everything from the ecosystem.

Lately I was checking for some good wireless earplugs. The airpods seem to be the best. But only if you're using an iPhone.

>You don't buy "one" Apple product which "just works".

>You have to buy everything from the ecosystem.

Agreed with the first, heavily disagreed with the second. People often end up buying into the Apple ecosystem after just one product, but not because they have to, but because they feel compelled to.

That was me with original airpods. They worked superbly with android, no complaints whatsoever. So I was like "huh, let me check out their other newer product offerings, it's been quite a while". Eventually, i ended up buying heavily into the ecosystem, and couldn't be happier (sidenote: shared clipboard between your phone and laptop/desktop is amazing).

In fact, I think the timing and everything about original airpods was a stroke of genius. I single-handedly know quite a few people who couldn't care less about Apple ecosystem at all and owned zero Apple devices, but they eventually gave in to try airpods, bought them, and a few years down the road ended up buying an iPhone or a Mac. Some of them were even very staunch pro-android people.

> sidenote: shared clipboard between your phone and laptop/desktop is amazing

KDE Connect: free, open source and, despite the name, works even if you're not using KDE.

I didn't have an iPhone when I first bought AirPods. They are the best for working out at the gym, so I went for them, after trying some alternatives.

The phone I used them with first was the Pixel 2. They worked perfectly fine. The only heartburn I had was once I had paired them with my Macbook, the bluetooth connection would prefer the Macbook over the phone, which was sometimes annoying.

Others might be upset at the lack of support for the Google Assistant, but for actually using the headphones, there was nothing better, even on Android.

A bit off topic, but I’ve always considered Apple the Disney of tech. What they put out is consistently good, and sometimes even great. While other studios might put out a better movie from time to time than Disney, their batting average is consistently higher than everyone else.

The same with Apple. With few exceptions, I can walk into an Apple store and buy an arbitrary product and be assured that it’s, at the minimum, good. Contrast with someone like Samsung who has great products but also really bad products. I can’t pull a random Samsung out of a hat and be convinced that I’ll like it.

I did not understand the Apple fans until I started using Apple for work stuff. One Apple product alone isn’t anything to write home about, but once you start getting more products, the eco system is above and beyond. Did you highlight a text field on the Apple TV? Your phone vibrates with a full screen keyboard at the ready. Little things like that make it a really nice experience that I haven’t seen other vendors match.

I just got an apple TV and I laughed when I saw that.

Even better, your phone can act as the remote, your airpods can paid (I've heard) etc.

Other than iphone I'm very late to apple's world, but as I get older, I just love that stuff works and I don't feel like I'm getting scammed every second.

You can even pair two different sets of AirPods now. Awesome if you have babies.

... what are you doing?

Watch shows or movies as a couple while putting baby to sleep or feeding. Also nice when you’re in kitchen and the noise of exhaust hood, microwave, faucet, pressure cooker, and whatnot are going on.

> Do your "solved problem" bluetooth headphones allow EASY audio sharing when the kid is sleeping and you want to watch something with your wife? These are two bluetooth devices on same audio stream.

Yes. Samsung has supported this for years and it has recently upstreamed to all android devices. You can literally do this with any phone and any bluetooth devices, you don't need to fork up $500 for the priviledge.

> Does your solved problem bluetooth headphones RELIABLY connect to your current device (without having to unpaid with another device).

Yes. The Bose QC35 II for example can store multiple bluetooth connections on the device and switch between them. They cost half as much as the Apple cans and are all but guaranteed to sound better than the plastic cones Apple uses.

> You should go back and listen to the criticism of the airpods when they came out - overpriced, stupid, whatever. Then check out sales numbers.

I won't argue that. Apple certainly moves product - there's a significant portion of the population that would buy anything they put out.

> Bose QC35 II for example can store multiple bluetooth connections on the device and switch between them

I have these and it’s annoying to switch them because they’re stored and switched via the app - if you’re switching between more than 2 devices.

The Bose anc also don’t have particularly good audio either so I’m interested to see what the Apple offering sounds like.

In general, there’s a bunch of little annoyances with the current anc devices available (audio quality, uncomfortable, ugly, etc) that I’d like to see Apple fix.

> I have these and it’s annoying to switch them because they’re stored and switched via the app - if you’re switching between more than 2 devices.

Not true, you can cycle between previously connected devices by long holding the power switch in the on position. You can also add new connections and wipe all connections via that switch. I have them and never need to use the app. Read the manual.

Again, this is another thing where Apple improve for an “already solved problem”.

You don’t need to press any buttons. Just interact with your devices as normal and your audio connection switches automatically as if sound were playing through the device’s respective speakers.

In fact there may be a downside because sometimes I actually need to take my AirPods out to verify that audio is still playing through them since the audio just transferred so fast.

The Bose phones also do fast and automatic switching between the last two connected devices. The button shuffle is only needed to switch to other previously connected devices (and that also takes only another few seconds).

Also one of my devices is a Windows PC. I don’t know if AirPods work equally well with non-Apple sources.

I don’t call that an improvement. Having my audio switch from the meeting I’m currently in to the 400th spam call of the day isn’t an improvement over getting to ignore the call entirely.

I've used Bose Bluetooth ANC headphones, and I can't say I've been impressed (though admittedly I don't have much to compare to).

The battery life is pretty much one day's use. The bluetooth connectivity is flaky, and sometimes I hear weird sound artifacts over Bluetooth too. The robot voice announcement whenever a device goes in or out of range, even if I'm currently listening to something from a different device, is super annoying, and there's no way AFAIK to turn it off.

Oh, and another thing: frequently attempts to play audio from one device will be silent because the headphones think another connected device is playing audio … even though it's not.

As other commenters said, the Bose headphones leave a ton of room for improvement. Trying to get them on the correct bluetooth device is something I have to fiddle with every single day. I will gladly pay an extra $200 for something that works more reliably.

But I worry that the "just works" will only kick in for a complete apple ecosystem. I have a bunch of issues with my airpods + Android, that iphone users don't seem to have, for example.

"Does your solved problem bluetooth headphones RELIABLY connect to your current device (without having to unpaid with another device). That is game changing."

Man, I wish my headphones did this. I constantly have to fiddle with my bluetooth settings, have audio come out of my mac or iPhone, sometimes in inappropriate places, even after I've tried to tell the OS to play from headphones. The worst is when switching between my Mac and iPhone, usually I have to unpair one, put my headphones into pairing mode, or at the very least turn bluetooth off on one device.

My headphones are...Apple AirPods. They did this when they first launched, so I even got the pros. Now none of my pairs ever work.

I really wish Apple would figure out how to make stuff just work. I think there's opportunity for someone to figure it out! No clue what happened to this company, but the AirPods are undoubtedly the most frustrating Apple product I've ever owned

Had 3 pairs of airpods over the years (2 original ones, 1 pro), all used heavily, haven't experienced this kind of an issue even once. And neither do I know anyone else who did. I don't know your situation, but I have a feeling you might have gotten a faulty unit, in which case a warranty request might be helpful.

I switch my current ones between a macbook and my phone multiple times a day, all it takes is pressing a single button in my taskbar on macbook or control panel of my phone.

I heard they even have an autoswitch feature now, where you can use your airpods with macbook, but when a call comes in or you play a video on your iphone, it switches automatically to that device, and then back. Haven't had a chance to test that feature myself tho, so YMMV.

You know there have been several firmware upgrades for the AirPods right?

> Does your solved problem bluetooth headphones RELIABLY connect to your current device

My Airpods don't. They are regularly confused whether they should connect to the iPad or the iPhone. Yes, both are nearby. But I'm only tapping and interacting on one of them at any given moment. Not always. Sometimes.

More frustrating: The iPad just loves to use its internal loudspeakers. I'm sitting on the couch watching a YouTube video via Airpods. I'm clicking on another video, sound is coming from the loudspeaker. Not always. Sometimes.

Third annoyance: I'm getting both Airpods out the capsule. Both are nearly fully charged. Only one is playing. I need to put the mute one back into the capsule, close it, open it and get the Airpod out again. Not always. Often.

Add to that an excellent microphone.

Pre-COVID I used a pair of Plantronics noise cancelling headphones that covered all of your requirements pretty well. Unfortunately the microphone was shit, so I decided to get Airpod Pros for all the remote meetings. Even with the short battery life they have quickly become my default headphones.

I'm not typically a fanboy of anything, but Apple does make some quality electronics.

Given you cannot replace battery, this is not high quality according to my standards.

>Given you cannot replace battery, this is not high quality according to my standards.

Cool, just don't be surprised when the sales numbers and reviews end up not reflecting that sentiment. Mostly because I doubt that vast majority of people use that metric as a baseline measure of high quality.

Especially because airpod competitors with replaceable batteries will be singificantly heavier, significantly less waterproof and may be more costly for similar functionality.

Non replaceable batteries, non upgradeable memory etc is all a tradeoff. Checkout the mac mini with M1 and soldered on memory, but memory performance seems amazing.

Well, look at it from this angle:

I draw the line with replacable battery because it renders the device inherently useless for its purpose (mobile use case).

All Apple in ear Airpods get destroyed if anyone replaces the battery. Even Apple cannot, and they claim to care about the environment.

Beats got a bad name, so I just skip that. There's a reason they did not attach that brand name to their Airpods products.

We just had BF and I saw great deals for Airpods. All of them.

XM3, which has superb ANC, just had a successor (XM4) which has multiple device support. XM4 goes for 350. XM3 was 200 on BF.

Now compare that with Airpods Max price tag and features.

I bought XM4 as a successor to my Logitech G933. Logitech G933 has no ANC, not so good sound quality, it has a proprietary dongle (the dealbreaker for my use case due to USB-A and dongle requirement), it has microUSB, it has 3.5 mm, battery lasts 8 hours. Battery replacement can be bought directly from Logitech, easy to replace yourself, and costs 10 EUR. Compare to XM3/4 3.5 mm, Bluetooth, superb ANC, USB-C (in contrast to microUSB or lightning), and the battery is good... but I doubt it still is in 3 years.

>just had a successor (XM4) which has multiple device support.

As an owner of those same Sony headphones (XM3), their multi-device support is a joke compared to airpods. Not even kidding, night and day. Manual pairing, limit on devices, having to do everything through Sony's buggy app, etc. I still like them, because when I am working at my desk in an office, I would prefer over-the-ears. If Apple manages to match and/or beat Sony's sound+ANC quality, but bring all the connectivity and great multi-device pairing features of current Airpods to Airpods Max, I am sold.

Yeah, well, that's why I wrote XM4. XM4 is mostly like XM3. One of the very few improvements is the multiple device support (but the price difference is IMO unlikely to be worth it).

I use the WF-1000XM3 and WH-1000XM4 and the pairing of the WF-1000XM3 works fine for me, but the ANC of the over the ears XM4 (as well as your WH-1000XM3) is superior. At times, I don't even have listen to anything and it still works. Its terrific at work. Even works with getting less agitated by the noise of my children.

Genuine question, is XM4 ANC that much different from XM3? I always assumed, for some reason, that it was an incremental upgrade in sound+ANC, but more of a major upgrade in hardware dept. Never tried XM4 myself though, so that is purely from hearing people talking about it, not actually testing the device myself.

If you confirm that ANC is actually significantly better than on XM3 (which I already liked a lot anyway), then now I know what I will be upgrading to, in case Airpods Max end up not delivering on their promise :)

Reviews I read suggest only a marginal difference in ANC area. My entire argument has been in the previous posts that the XM4 isn't worth the price over the already excellent XM3. That multi-device feature of XM4? Never had to use it. I might've as well purchased a XM3. Ideally at BF (200 EUR is a steal).

Yeah, no worries, I wasn't even continuing with the argument in my previous reply, I was just curious about XM3 vs. XM4.

And on that note, for other people who are interested, XM4 had recently a really good deal on Amazon (US) for something like $250. At that price point, it is def a really good bang for the buck.

At least until Airpods Max come out, XM4 are unilaterally imo overall the best pair of wireless headphones with ANC. Not trying to imply that Airpods Max will take over that spot as soon as they get released, they might completely flop and be trash, who knows. But either way, XM4 is currently imo the best, and even if Airpods Max somehow manages to become a magical pair of headphones, XM4 is still a great pair, and is definitely still gonna be a better bang for the buck than Airpods Max (while i pre-ordered those, I don't have any illusions about me not paying the "apple tax" on those). So for anyone hesitating or not into the idea of paying $500+ for wireless headphones with ANC, i heavily recommend Sony WH-1000XM4.

> Do your "solved problem" bluetooth headphones allow EASY audio sharing when the kid is sleeping and you want to watch something with your wife? These are two bluetooth devices on same audio stream.

I don’t know, I have never once needed this capability.

> Does your solved problem bluetooth headphones RELIABLY connect to your current device (without having to unpaid with another device). That is game changing.

Yes, for the 5 years I’ve had Bluetooth headphones this has never been an issue.

> Yes, for the 5 years I’ve had Bluetooth headphones this has never been an issue.

No opinion on apple being better or not (mixed bag, in my limited experience) but this just isn't true in general I think. I've used at least a half dozen bluetooth headphones on at least a dozen different laptops/desktops/phones over the last decade... they have all had some issues with connections at various times.

Very true indeed. That's why I stopped bothering with Linux. I love Linux and I've used it on many laptops. But not a single one offered me trouble free computing. I can't blame Linux for that. It's amazing what the open source community has achieved. I hate Windows and I can't be productive on it. People who have used Apple's ecosystem know what the phrase "it just works" means. I probably wouldn't spend $899 (Australian dollars) on those headphones. But my wife recently bought a pair of Airpod pros and I've never had an experience like that with any other earphones! They just work. It feels like Apple just knows what we want! I still use a three year old iPhone 8 and it just works with latest OS updates. It hasn't slowed down a bit. Why do I need to buy a POS Android phone with 12 gb of ram when I'm happy. Apple's products actually have that zen feeling. It's hard to describe. And the longevity of their products make them really good value for money.

I solve the pairing / unpairing problem with a Jabra Link 360 or 370 dongle.

https://www.jabra.com/accessories/jabra-link-360#/

It looks to the PC like USB audio, but it talks to the headphones over Bluetooth.

If I want to transition from the Windows 10 laptop to the Linux laptop, or desk-side PC, I just move the dongle.

Signal is solid. Has an LED on it so you can see whether it's talking to a headset (blue), playing audio with mic umuted (green), or playing audio with mic muted (red). (Amazing feature for Zoom calls!)

The retail price of it seems a bit high at $56, but you can find them used with Jabra Evolve 65 headsets on eBay for $45-$60 as a bundle. (The headset sound is pretty good, actually. Fragile if you don't pack it flat in a backpack, alas.)

Sorry I sound like a commercial, but it really makes life easier. Seems like the frustration saved was worth the $$$.

Different people have different experiences and their opinions are based on those experiences. In my experiences Apple products don’t always “just work”, but since they’re designed with the overconfident belief that they do “just work”, the failure modes can be extremely cryptic and unrecoverable.

> Does your solved problem bluetooth headphones RELIABLY connect to your current device (without having to unpaid with another device). That is game changing.

Is that really game changing? I recently got myself a pair of Huawei FreeLace Pro which do exactly that, even have a button shortcut to change between the two devices, works with my iPhone and iPad. They have ANC, an Awareness mode, a battery charge that last 28 hours, the audio sounds amazing enough to this non-audiophile, all of that for 89€.

My "solved problem" Sony WH-1000XM3s can connect to my TV and have their volume controlled. My Apple AirPods Pro can't...

Neither pair will switch between my iPhone and MacBook without triggering a manual pair from the Bluetooth menu. To get that working for the AirPods I have to update to Big Sur but apparently that has a good chance of bricking my MacBook so I can't.

My Bose QC 35 IIs reliably connect to two devices at the same time. I spark 'em up and hear the voice say "Connected to <phone 1>... and <phone 2>". When I play anything with either phone, I hear it through the headphones. It just works.

(Yes, I save, and use, my old smartphones. I'm an Android developer so they're handy to keep around.)

If my kids are asleep we turn the TV volume down. Why would you wear headphones with your spouse, you can't have any conversation so it defeats the purpose of watching together

If you want to talk put a headphone in the outer ear, and you can still talk softly to each other. Headphones are super immersive sounding. And if you have the pros, you set them to transparency mode. You can still talk, but kids won't hear the movie.

You should consider turning down your headphone volume if the idea of talking to someone with them on seems far-fetched.

I used to be like that and my hearing shows it, and I've learned that just because I'm listening to something, it doesn't need to immerse my entire aural apparatus.

Some headphones block outside noise, some don't. They're wrong but I wouldn't assume it's a volume issue either.

What is your point? MacDonalds make the best hamburgers because they sell so many of them? Windows is the best OS because billions of people use it?

>Do your "solved problem" bluetooth headphones allow EASY audio sharing when the kid is sleeping and you want to watch something with your wife? These are two bluetooth devices on same audio stream.

So in your mind, 'solving' a problem is buying not one, but TWO $500 headphones instead of $10 earbuds and a $5 Y connector? Oh wait, you also believe that the headphone jack is stupid. Yeah, sure, sell people a $1000 solution for a problem you created. Great job!

>It's amazing to me how many folks seem to have no clue about what folks value in the apple ecosystem.

I'm not a fan of Gucci products either. ;)

The headphone jack that all of the other mobile manufacturers are dropping too? Putting its removal at Apple's feet alone is a bit disingenious when it was the obvious direction for smartphones. Eventually one of the manufacturers was going to be "brave" and the rest would follow. Also, a long trailing cable from your TV / accessories across your living room to a y-connector to two more long trailing cables to two headsets is incredibly inelegant and for some houses, an impractical solution. Having wireless headphones that support a Bluetooth standard (because no two implementations are the same) that allows multiple speakers for a single source, is very nice.

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