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Comment by 2OEH8eoCRo0 | Hacker News Reader

Future news: Visa and MasterCard no longer processing donations to the EFF.

I think that this drama is good for everyone except for payment processors. PornHub is forced to self-police more, payment processors are spotlighted for having too much power, and crypto-currencies show their value.

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I think the drama has virtually no effect on payment processors nor should it. Unless they are choosing not to do business with someone based upon them being a member of a protected class, they should be free to choose whether or not to engage in business with another entity. If anything this incident highlights that there is now an alternative to the traditional payment processors, cryptocurrency, so the power of the payment processors has actually diminished over time without any government interference.

Who comes out of this poorly in my eyes is the EFF which has spent the last 2-3 years wandering so far from their original path that I have stopped what used to be a regular recurring donation to them.

EFF have indeed diverged from their original mission, which was fundamentally techno-libertarian.

The EFF's changes are an excellent demonstrations of Conquest's Second Law of Politics, "any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing".

That's okay, you spurred me to donate.

I would agree, except if there is any business in america with near monopolist power, it would be visa, amex, mastercard.

I disagree with people arguing that companies like Cloudflare should not be allowed to choose their customers. Because there are countless other similar services that can for the most part, do what Cloudflare does.

But the 3 big payment processors are an oligopoly and you effectively cannot do business without them. Crypto is a joke when it comes to relative adoption. There are no other options if you plan to run a business today.

If Facebook, Google, and Twitter decide you can’t use their platforms to reach your audience, you’re S.O.L. If you can’t take cards, you can at least take cash or check. And pornhub could set up a site selling bitcoin then add a pointer to their premium payment page referring folks to Bob’s Bitcoin Emporium.

How long will people be able to keep buying Bitcoin though? There's a lot of hoops already. For instance, Cash App (at least recently) required you to upload a photo ID in order to enable transfers. They make it easy to invest in, but hard to use as a currency.

I can imagine the US, at least, moving towards a future where Bitcoin is allowed as a financial instrument, but transferring to a wallet you control requires background checks and waiting periods like firearms. Either due to pressure from governments, credit card processors, or both.

You assume that Visa and MasterCard will just stop there. What if they go after businesses willing to do business with you? They see that blocking you from monetization doesn't work, so they block companies that sell you services from monetization if they continue to sell to you. Or they'll accuse you of money laundering when you switch to bitcoin.

Its really hard to imagine a website that takes cash or cheque. I suppose its possible.

At this point pornhub is big enough, that fb, google and twitter all banning it might honestly be less of a threat to them than their payment processors pulling support.

Convincing users to type a dns name into the address bar of a very famous website seems easier than convincing the users to mail a cheque (esp. Internationally where people dont use cheques) or pay bitcoin

How about normal banking transactions? Nearly everyone has access to these, surely more than have access to credit cards or checks.

> If Facebook, Google, and Twitter decide you can’t use their platforms to reach your audience

This is reality for millions of people. You need a accepted phone number for all of these services, and not every country/provider is accepted.

>If Facebook, Google, and Twitter decide you can’t use their platforms to reach your audience, you’re S.O.L. If you can’t take cards, you can at least take cash or check.

The fact that "less convenient way that put off 80% of customers" exists is no excuse for payment processors not being neutral.

Any company that isn't at PH's scale wouldn't be able to survive getting banned from card payments. Taking cash/check isn't possible on the web and Bitcoin poses the kind of barrier to entry that will surely lose you at least half of your customers.

Imagine being a rather large consumer electronics web store. You're doing very well, with a good brand loyalty and major part of the market and pride yourself on fast delivery times. Suddenly, your credit card processor drops you because you sold an electronic sex toy that one time and that's against Jesus or whatever. Now the only way to get paid is through bank transfers (takes up to 2 days to go through, fees, pain in the ass) or cash at delivery (huge fee, need to withdraw cash in advance). There are 3 other stores in your market that never made that fatal mistake - who do you think will still buy from you? You're left with only a handful of business customers. Once you downsize because 80% of your revenue is gone, they leave too. F

Gladly this is changing too. I have a webshop in switzerland and only like 10-20% pay with credit card or paypal. This is getting less every year.

We have instant payments without heavy fees for both parts as swiss exclusive solution (twint) and online banking (normal eu transactions) are easier than ever with modern banking apps.

The main reason to have a credit card around here is using foreign online services. I know many people that simply never got one, because no need.

I am sure other countries go similiar paths.

> The main reason to have a credit card around here is using foreign online services.

I'd argue that's the much smaller part than cards used for travelling. (At least that used to be the case and will again be the case).

Try renting a car, or checking into a hotel without a credit card.

Booking an airline ticket with cash may also provide you with extended attention by security personnel.

Well we have access to prepaid/throwaway credit cards that dont need deep verficiation below 10k/year. Most people i know use these for travelling, however booking in Europe or asia usually has a pay in cash option and the cc is only for verfication. And renting cars is kinda unusual if you travel europe or asia.

How does that work? Is it like an ACH transfer between bank accounts? And what about fraud, are customers able to charge back? If those customers get their account stolen, who eats the loss?

Yes just like that. Takes between a working day and a few hours depending on the bank policy.

There basically is no fraud. At least i never was involved in a case. European banking is well protected with different tan systems. As well as insuries usually including bank fraud afaik.

Edit:// The only fraud issues i have are with credit cards.

>they should be free to choose whether or not to engage in business with another entity

So, if the puritans and the advertisers in the US are against e.g. BDSM or feet fetisism, or whatever, people all around the world should just bend over and take it (pun intended) because the two monopolies in payment processing decided to make businesses offering them unviable?

Fuck this (pun intended). Payment processing should be like ISPs: neutral. If something is illegal, they sure can take it out. Anything else, it's not their place, and it's even less the advertisers place to exert undue influence.

Payment neutrality is just as important, and as required as net neutrality.

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