Why does the left have to censor the right? Surely they should be able to beat the right with logical and reasoned arguments?
Censorship has always struck me as a tool that a side which isn't confident in its arguments uses.
Censorship has always struck me as a tool that a side which isn't confident in its arguments uses.
In spite of this, they keep offering. As soon as they do anything except bend-over-backwards to accomodate the right, they are met with “so much for the tolerant left”. Is it any surprise that people get fed up when this is all they’re ever met with. If you can’t come to the table and behave like an adult, don’t be surprised when you get relegated to the kids table.
What is any sort of reasoned debate about policy going to look like when one of the participants is coming into it with a set of beliefs as divergent from reality as QAnon?
You take one step forward, he takes one step back.
"Meet in the middle" says the man in bad faith.
Absolutely true.
Also true:
“every single time the right agrees to sit down and have a conversation with “reason and logical arguments” they get met with bad-fair arguments“
Those people are not willing to talk to or listen to anyone who's supposedly on their side but has a different opinion. What makes you think they will listen to the "other side"?
To keep on the previous example: Pence and Fox News never called anyone "idiot Trumper" or anything and they are being attacked by that crowd.
About climate change: Greta Thunberg has been called all kinds of names without equivalent provocation.
And there's a lot of people willing to engage with climate change deniers in the way you're suggesting they should, but a large part of climate change deniers are not willing to accept that those people are acting in good faith. There's lot of accusations that non-deniers are paid shills and stuff like that.
Again, why does every person on one side has to be perfect, but the other side gets a pass? Even the Republicans can't control the Trump crowd.
Yes, there are clearly completely intractable extremists who won’t engage in good faith.
But there are a lot of their people who will.
On the other hand, the same thing should apply to the left! Just because someone on the left has not been using logical arguments and acting in bad faith, it doesn't mean the whole left is doing it. People don't get a free pass on claiming "the left caused it" or (EDIT) "the left not talking to them is the reason they have this opinion".
I agree that this is obvious bullishit.
But it’s also bullshit to say ‘the right caused it’.
How many people are getting a free pass on saying that right now?
I also believe that blaming the whole right for anything is incorrect too, and repeatedly mentioned that some of the right are being shunned by extremists too.
For example, I think things like saying ‘whiteness’ is the problem, is not particularly associated with the extremes and yet very much are part of the cause of the problem. Similarly, calling everyone on the left a snowflake or a communist, is not only the purview of extremists.
I haven't made any black and white division between extremists and anyone else. I always said "large portion of extremists", "a large part of climate change deniers", etc.
What I'm replying to here is the multiple posts (not yours) saying that the problem is that some people on the left have been communicating in a combative/ineffective manner.
While this is true, I don't believe this is the source of the problem. And demanding perfection from one side while absolving the other is not a fair tactic. It's pure bullshit. Why must the left be flawless? In fact, it's a bit condescending to the extremists.
No ‘side’ can claim not to be the cause unless it can curb the behavior. The left cannot curb the right behaving unreasonably, but it might be able to curb unreason on its own side.
However this: “demanding perfection from one side while absolving the other” seems like a straw man. If this is being done, it’s clearly being done by the right and the left.
When the right say the left are causing the problem by doing this, they are correct. You are also correct to say they aren’t the only ones causing it.
However the left cannot improve the situation by pointing fingers at the right and doubling down.
The left doesn’t have to be ‘flawless’, but if it’s not better than the right, then how does it expect to improve anything?
I'm not talking about "the right" here. The right is too varied (as is the left). I'm talking about extremists.
I pointed out that some extremists are not even willing to listen to people on the right itself. Pence and Fox News are definitely not calling people "idiot trumpsters" and are still being attacked by them.
It's not even a matter of the left trying to engage in discussion. People have screamed at me and called me "sheeple" for wearing a mask in the supermarket. How do you engage? I just left. Am I the cause of the problem for not speaking a word before or after the engagement?
The left can't improve the situation by trying to debate with people that's unwilling to debate in the first place, period.
This is true.
However the left can improve the situation by being willing to debate people who are willing to debate, and yet casual dismissals or irrelevances about whiteness and racism stop that dead.
Look at this comment as an example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25698039
By not doing so, they do create the climate for extremism, frankly at both ends.
Extremism is a problem, but it’s a false dichotomy to think of extremism as somehow independent of what everyone else does.
My example of climate change was merely a "for instance" rather than for the topic of the example to become part of the discussion.
Point being, silencing one side doesn't work if the alleged reason is their ideas are so wrong they are too dangerous to be read unless you can properly show what you claim is "right".
What I was objecting here is the theory that people on the right has been radicalised due to the left not wanting to discuss. I'm just demonstrating that not only the left wants to speak to the extremists, but also the right itself wants (Pence and Fox News). But the extremists don't care: they're even attacking both left and right preemptively. There's zero interest from extremists to understand opposing opinions.
This theory that the left is to blame for the radicalisation of those people holds absolutely no water.
And no, discussing studies doesn’t work. See the anti-vax debate. We’ve been pointing out the science on climate change and vaccines, clearly and respectfully, for _decades_ and it has not mattered.
I’ve never seen anyone directly start a persuasive argument with “you’re an idiot Trumper”. It isn’t that common. Your helpless victim attitude is showing.
Trump had every opportunity to win this election rightfully. He is not a victim and neither are you or his supporters. Stop playing one.
More than that:
> Others called for Vice President Mike Pence — who enraged Trump when he acknowledged that he did not have the power to unilaterally throw out electoral college votes — to be tried for treason. One Facebook post, quickly deleted, said Pence, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell should be hanged.
* https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-conspiracy-theories-...
See also:
* https://www.businessinsider.com/nooses-spotted-as-pro-trump-...
You are correct about that but why are you so set on making other adults think the way you do?
The extreme assumptions and generalizations don't help. There are many of us that don't agree with you but don't exactly line up with Republicans or even Trump supporters at times.
Many Trump supporters are Libertarians that do not agree full with Republican ideals completely, but it's the closest home.
You're setting yourself up for lots of disappointment, in this life. If you truly need complete strangers you haven't met to do pyschological work for you, happiness will always slip away.
It’s how the Scientologist operate. How China operates. It’s where America is/has going.
Next step is going to be a push to gather up all the guns. Wouldn’t want all the free thinkers getting any ideas now.
Why should I believe you this time?
I guess Obama did allow cartels to have guns by continuing Fast & Furious so you're half right.
No there weren't.
> I guess Obama did allow cartels to have guns by continuing Fast & Furious so you're half right.
You're half-right because of this one, the Obama administration circumvented federal law to allow known prohibited persons to buy guns and then let them take the guns across the border. over 1200 guns were lost to known organized crime without even getting Mexican gov't permission.
“Put America on the path to ensuring that 100% of firearms sold in America are smart guns.” - a quote you can check today on Biden’s website.
You just aren't the free thinker you think you are
Wait, has this actually worked before? Ever? Do you have examples? For instance, when they denied "radical Islamist groups" access to popular social media, "radical Islamist groups" just started using less popular social media that is harder to keep tabs on. "Radical Islamist groups" certainly haven't disappeared...
The fact of the matter is that echo chambers encourage extremism and social media is nothing but echo chambers.
Another fact of the matter is human psychology. Humans have a biological tendency to accept as truth the first opinion they hear on a topic. This is a result of evolution. If your tribe member tells you a berry is poisonous, is the first response to argue? Or to just listen. Better to be safe than sorry.
When you combine that bit of psychology with social media, you see people go online to some circle jerk, innocently at first, and then get radicalized.
Now before any counter examples get brought out, just consider that while it doesn't work this way for every person, in every context, it does work this way for some non-trivial amount of people, and that's what we're seeing. A lot of users on parler aren't domestic terrorists, but if it's even 1% who fall victim to basic human psychology, that's enough for what took place on Wednesday.
So yeah - the example is the time before social media.
Also, if you didn't hear racism in USA in the 1980s you've led a very sheltered life.
Ever since the beginning of the Internet webhosting companies have colluded to deplatform the KKK and a few other notorious white supremacist groups. This has been largely successful in curbing the outreach of the KKK in the United States. It's also why YouTube is getting a lot of criticism for embracing white supremacist groups and facilitating thier growing outreach. This is a break from long-running comm business practices.
Daryl Davis has certainly proven otherwise, but I freely admit that no one should have to have the sort of patience or dedication to the cause that he's demonstrated in doing so.
> What I have come to find to be the greatest and most effective and successful weapon that we can use, known to man, to combat such adversaries as ignorance, racism, hatred, violence, is also the least expensive weapon, and the one that is the least used by Americans. That weapon is called communication. [0] [1]
It's a self-harming myth the left believes in. You don't need to be right to win the argument.
There's also Frank Lunz's observation that many people form opinions based solely on the emotive content of the words (Russell conjugation [2]) they're presented with, regardless of the facts. [3]
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotive_conjugation [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz#Use_of_language
They feel that the deck is rigged against them, debating reinforces the current oppressive system, that all disagreement is illegitimate, and that anyone with power who isn't dismantling the current system is evil.
[0] https://newdiscourses.com/2020/07/woke-wont-debate-you-heres...
I think if you sat down with an educated conservative and an open mind you'd have a different point of view.
If your statement was just a blanket statement about people in general, I apologize for mis-categorizing it.
The left is succeeding because it has abandoned argument in favor of the raw pursuit and exercise of power, including their incessant moralizing, which is of course how a priestly caste expresses power.
Why would they go back to debating?
They censor because its playing field they're winning on.
The profit motive to keep trump on is gone, so he's gone
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/lindsey-graham-called-trait...
I’m reminded of Qaddafi’s last video. If only he had used logic and reason...
These are people who are nominally on his side, angry that he's no longer carrying water for Trump.
It isn’t “censorship” to toss your ass off Twitter for violating their TOS. It is censorship for the government to demand Twitter shut ya down
See the distinction?
This is a misnomer. It's certainly censorship to "toss your ass off Twitter", even if somebody's arbitrary interpretation of a TOS concludes in the finding of a violation.
The concept of free speech doesn't just restrict the government via the First Amendment... it is a tradition and a founding principle (as documented in the Federalist Papers) of the United States of America, as well as a social contract.
I would argue that companies are obligated to abide by the principles of free speech, not from a legal perspective, but from a social perspective, lest they face the consequence of controversy Twitter is currently facing for banning the account of a sitting US President.
Ultimately, silencing people you disagree with is a no-win path to go down.
If you want to debate in good faith whether people are too quick to call others racist, maybe you should start the debate by enumerating what kind of speech have sparked those claims? Otherwise you're just being hyperbolic and increasing the political divide.
I get that people are pissed for being called racist, but if they REALLY wanna fix that, the first step is admitting that the other side might be pissed about something too.
I spend most of my mental effort trying to get people on each side to do this, its not easy bro.
? A woman is under arrest for trying to grab what she thought was her phone back from a black kid. It's a national story.
In 2020, getting into an argument with a Black person is 'racist' and 'criminal' if you happen to be wrong.
The woman did 1=2, in that, her actions are wrong.
But because someone is a different colour, she's being destroyed and doxxed on the MSM for the assumption of racism. (Ironically, she could easily pass as a 'person of colour' if she chose to).
This is unfortunately a problem right now in politics and it's perpetuated by the press.
> In 2020, getting into an argument with a Black person is 'racist' and 'criminal' if you happen to be wrong.
Assault isn't a mere argument, and it's a crime regardless of the race of the perpetrators or victim.
> But because someone is a different colour, she's being destroyed and doxxed on the MSM for the assumption of racism.
No, she’s being condemned for the objective fact of assaulting a child.
False accusation and assault should be crimes, period. If she had done the same thing to me you can be damn sure I would want her ass in jail regardless of my skin colour. Her arrest is a good thing. Actions that affect others negatively should have consequences.
Assault is a crime, yes, what she did was wrong - yes, of course - I agree with that.
But what she is being destroyed for is 'racism' - not 'assault and false accusation'.
She was being irrational (1=2) and then because of this, castigated for racism - which is a much more devious charge.
Also - it's shocking that anyone is 'shocked' over such a pedestrian encounter. Have HN readers never been in a fight before? Have folks literally never been in an argument?
This kind of stuff is 'daily' on the streets, at WallMart, etc. It's not very civil obviously, but it's really common for people to get upset over things. We have bouncers at bars for this reason. But we're adults and we move past it.
And - 'false accusation' in this manner is clearly not criminal. The woman had her phone stolen, it's reasonable for her in a hysterical state and just see the first iPhone and possibly think it's hers. Again, not nice at all, but not completely crazy.
The proper response to a hysterical person who had their phone stolen, and who maybe thinks you have it is to 'take the high ground' and calmly demonstrate your ownership. That's all. I don't expect this of a kid, but that could have happend.
That we have a 'national story' with literally Al Sharpton because someone 'grabbed someone's arm' is utterly ridiculous. The kid is 'seeking counselling' because someone 'touched him forcefully'? It's a farce. They've turned this utterly minor incident into a bad SNL parody.
Finally - I'm not implying their couldn't have been racism either, this woman could possibly just as nasty as it gets, it's impossible to tell.
And of course, the whole point of CNN putting this on the news is not that this specific moment is important, but that it could be demonstrative of 'systematic racism in the commons' and they want to make an example out of her - but lacking any possible reference to racial motivation, it's just plain stupid.
In summary - this is an example of certain parts of the media castigating individuals who may be of a certain persuasion (in this case 'White') for no reason, and I can see people getting upset over that.
The riot on capital hill however was not mostly a political movement of general malaise, rather, it was specifically about that certain people feel the election was stolen. It was mostly certainly not stolen, but they believe that because Trump told them so, and that's the primary motivation issue of the violence at this point.
And maybe it's a cultural thing but I've never seen a grown woman tackling a 14 year old kid to the ground like this, and if I ever do you can be sure I will call the police. Just because you've seen it often doesn't mean it should be normalised.
And no, she's not being "destroyed" by the racism accusation. But she might be destroyed if she goes to jail and gets a permanent record. And she had it coming. Actions HAVE consequences.
That is a fascinatingly passive synonym for "struggle session."
Breaking the law has consequences. And the only consequence here is her being prosecuted for assault and battery and potentially going to jail. This has nothing to do with racism accusation, and is nothing compared to the torture you're suggesting.
Nobody is going to jail for grabbing someone's arm.
Even hitting someone - it's not nice, but not a big deal.
What is wrong with the rhetoric here?
This is a 'non incident' - someone was upset over a lost phone, and some minor classroom shenanigans played out.
Nobody was hurt, nothing happened, it doesn't even belong in the courts.
The woman is up for DUI she's a little unhinged, some people are like that, life goes on.
I guess I should have said 'undersandable' when someone is angry.
And yes - she is totally destroyed.
Do you understand the implications of your face being all over TMZ and CNN, publishing your name?
She will have death threats.
She will almost certainly lose her job if she has a normal job.
This will tar her for the rest of her life.
People commit suicide over this kind of stuff.
'Naming and shaming' for such a minor even is vindictive and terrible.
I understand CNN wanting to call attention to casual racism, but they should probably using these as 'lesson events' and probably not using real names.
They also dramatize by giving some back story 'son of a musician' and 'lady with a history of DUI' which is shameful - none of that is relevant.
Given how sensitive these things are they could be really polite about it, talk about what happened objective, talk about how the actors could have acted differently without names and colour commentary.
A company deplatforming an individual is indeed censorship, but is not government abridgement of free speech.
They can raise the money. I assume there are enough software engineers that will sympathize with them and build one.
Was this Parler that they created?
Looks like the app got shut down today. But I’m sure they can still make a website for it, running JavaScript.
You can’t shut the website down, unless you hijack the DNS.
Would you consider this to be censorship? Does it make a difference who the speaker is?