Ask HN: How much do you bullshit on a CV/Resume/Interview? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How much do you bullshit on a CV/Resume/Interview?

11 pointsalexnime23 comments

On paper I'm an advanced/senior web programmer (8+ years), and I've got that experience in several aspects of development (php, mysql, html5, css3, javascript etc. by today's standards).

I reckon I have a fair grasp of UX and UI principles and contribute positively to any meetings regarding the front-ending interfaces of all projects I've been involved in.

However, I haven't got any e-commerce experience or much experience with collaborative source control (I've used git for a good few years, but not with other people).

I'm freelancing at the moment but I don't enjoy it anymore. I want to find another job.

How can I go about getting a job without any e-commerce (or proper source control) experience? Should I lie about my abilities and catch up on anything I've not groked, or just try to find something in my experience's range and hope that I'll get some experience that way?

View on HN

Why would you even consider lying? Don't you have any integrity? Isn't there some sense inside you about behaving in an appropriate manner? A moral compass?

Another greedy and grasping person willing to do anything to serve their own interests.

I would've thought it actually came down to how much you lied. But regarding the question that was given out there...

Yeah, I've considered lying, but not necessarily to deceive. I'd be up to date with all necessary API's within less than a week, but my point is that because I've not had any real-world experience, would it be bad to say a white lie in an industry that relies so massively on past-experience?

And has anyone else lied? Or am I the only one who would consider lying about something small in order to achieve something better?

So it's about acceptable lies and unacceptable lies. I suppose it is all a matter of opinion which lies are acceptable and which are not.

Santa Claus for example is a well accepted lie which is okay to propagate.

Yeah, you're totally right. Except about missing the point.

Also, if anything, considering this, I regard myself to have a high integrity because I'm in a dilemma as to whether to lie or not. At least I'm asking for opinions...

I'm sorry if this sounds rude but I can't agree that you have high integrity. If you did, you would have never considered a lie (white or not) just simply because you felt you needed to, regardless of any reason.

I much rather have someone be honest with me, tell me they don't know, but that they will do their best to pick things up fast and learn without hindering the team, and work hard at being the best they can be than someone pretending to know something, try to pick up pieces and then still not be great at what they're supposed to know. Honesty goes a long way and I've never turned anyone down because they lack something but I've certainly turn away countless number of people who've lied even the slightest.

BS meters are easier to trigger than you may think. And honestly, there's no integrity if this was ever a passing thought.

Disclaimer: I've hired many people for my own company as well as have a slew of friends who've hired many people for their own companies/startups. This isn't something new.

Since when has the computer science industry been able to claim higher integrity than any other industry — certainly sounds to me like you, being someone in a position to hire others think highly of yourself? I'd be able to bullshit you simply because I'm able to do what I'd be lying about, but not be able to back it up with a real-world example.

You're probably no better than anyone who hires anyone else... probably on a power-hungry ego trip. Sure you can tell yourself that you can sniff a lier in an interview, but then do you hire shit employees? Probably one or two... and they're bullshitters, don't you know.

I'm not after a lecture in morals and integrity, I want to grasp the general opinions of people who've found themselves needing to perhaps lie in order to get themselves in a better position in life/job.

1. I never said anything about the CS industry and I don't see why that matters, regardless of what industry this is part of. I never said CS was of higher integrity than others nor was that ever part of the discussion.

2. I don't think of myself more highly than anybody else. You made a statement, I had a counter point of view, and I gave my opinion.

3. Considering my last company scaled up and was successfully acquired, I think its safe to say in defense of the great team we've had, that they're not shit employees. Say and think what you want but I think its clear you're the person speaking out of anger right now. And don't let your personal anger at me for what I said out of personal opinion be the reason for you to talk smack about the team I've worked with, of which you know nothing about. They don't deserve that. You can think I'm on an ego trip all you want, I'm not.

4. I wasn't trying to give you a lecture. I gave very concise advice on what I personally look for and what I think others (including those I know) look for. Whether you value that opinion or not or believe others look for that or not is up to you. There are many companies out there that will gladly hire the right person base on their personality, culture fit, and skills irregardless of past experience (another advice you can choose to ignore if you like). Seems to me you're bent on this past experience thing base on an assumption rather than trying to see if you'll be able to land the job as a value to the company you'd be applying for.

Whatever the case may be, you can choose to disagree with me all you like. I'm not here to brag or put you down. I merely disagreed with your statement and whether you liked it or not, it's something I stand by.

Instead of doing that do some SEO on your resume, write down every piece of software you've ever touched. Then spam it out to all the job hunting boards. If you've used git then put that, if it comes up in the interview tell them the truth.

If you were interviewing for a build engineering position knowledge of git-hooks and all the features would probably be important, what most companies are looking for is the ability to commit / push. Even if you had never used it I don't think it would be a deal breaker, it takes about 10 minutes to figure out git anyway.

Perhaps this'll be seen as a shameless plug, but this weekend I rewrote my resume and I'm kinda enamored by how concise it is.

It's hard to lie when you keep things high level and focused on verifiable work. I do want to rewrite the two wordy parts to be less...standard:

http://openmymind.net/karlseguin.pdf

"Should I lie about my abilities and catch up on anything I've not groked" <-- that's a nono. I personally interview candidates by finding a somewhat obscure entry (e.g. awk) and asking a few questions to suss out whether or not the candidate lied about abilities.

What is your goal?

- Find some job? Then SEO-spam. Learn SCM (svn or git should take all of a few hours to learn on your own) and ecommerce (authorize.net and paypal api are easy to learn, and its a nice exercise to write your own gateway)

- Find a job that actually fits you? Do some soul searching and figure out what in particular excites you. You may find that some experiences are unnecessary (though SCM is definitely a must)

- Find a job that will actually excite you? Try hacking together your own project, or work on an open source project to build some street cred.

Alternatively, you can play the blog game (write a blog about stuff, and broadcast to HN, other forums or other blogrolls). I seem to recall a blog by a fellow WK Selph, (he wrote a few articles about high frequency trading) which he used to land a new job.

I would highly recommend that you don't lie. As a person who has hired for several positions and who also has a good BS detector, a discovered lie is always a deal breaker. It puts your entire candidacy into question and you're resume goes straight into the trash can.

I can understand if I was caught out. I have had experience (but no real-world experience) in ecommerce.

I'd be able to answer all your questions, deliver results, learn anything I didn't know in a few days.

Would it be that bad in this case?

Yes. I am currently hiring and have a candidate that is actually perfect for the job. I will not hire him. Why? Because on his resume he claimed ownership for some very impressive projects, and in the interview it became clear that he was in a very junior role in those projects. As my dad taught me, "Do not lie, cheat, steal, or associate with those who do"

It would be better to be honest about your experience, and if you feel you are lacking in some area, get some experience in the area you need while you are looking for a job.

I wouldn't lie about my role in a project. I'd consider that to be different to be honest.

In this particular example, I was looking for reactions for general skills as opposed to to specific roles within a project. My apologies, I should've been clear about that.

A lie is a lie is a lie, no matter how small.

Everyone lies. You lie - I guarantee it. There is such a thing as acceptable lying. You probably lie every day. If you have kids then you certainly lie constantly about small things.

The question is, for any individual, what do you consider an acceptable lie? What are your limits?

For me, lying on a resume is not acceptable. For others clearly it is fine.

A lie is a lie is a lie, in context, means that a small lie (i.e. claiming to know bash even though you never used any of the nontrivial features of bash) is not acceptable.

When you start hiring people, you will quickly realize how many people claim expertise, or even awareness, of languages / systems that they dont know about. e.g. everyone who has used awk '{print $1}' claims to be an awk expert. And its kinda sad that people see such small things as acceptable.

In the particular field I'm in (radio astronomy), I usually have two choices when hiring. 1) Hire someone with radio astronomy knowledge and teach them to be a good software engineer, or 2) Hire a good software engineer and teach them a bit about radio astronomy. My point being, you don't have to know everything. From my point of view as the person doing the hiring, you simply have to demonstrate a capacity to learn coupled with a well-groundedness in the basic concepts required for the job.

Rather than lying, why don't you put the ecommerce technology under a different section in your resume.

eg. "Technologies I'm proficient in: Python/Tornado, Java/Spring/Hibernate

Technologies I have some knowledge of: IBM Websphere"

Play it smart. There's no need to lie. If you really are good, build a case for it - in case they ask you to prove your experience. Prove to them you will sweat it out and prevail, as you have with other technologies in the past.

See, the #1 thing that I've learned in interviews is - that it's a two way conversation. Make a case and they will listen, even understand.

I wouldn't lie about your abilities. Any competent interviewer will suss this out easily, making you look like a fool.

And if they don't figure out your lying, is that the kind of place you would want to work? Where everyone there potentially doesn't know what they're doing.

Why not just add a line with "current interests" and put these other things you're working on learning? Then put in 30 hours to learn the basics.

Don't bullshit - live up to what you want to be.

I have never, nor will ever lie on a resume or an interview.

I just cant do it. If you lie about a skill, likely that will be the one skill they hire you for having.

I have lost opportunities where i could have easily lied or bullshitted my way into the job - but that is just not in my character.

I think that anyone who lies on their resume is pretty low in my opinion.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com