Comment by lcc | Hacker News Reader

Comment by lcc | Hacker News Reader

I think this is BS, actually. I think I'm allowed to say that because I've completed some long-ass hikes and other suffer-fests myself.

Suffering, in and of itself, isn't a skill. You will endure iff you want to endure. That is, if the perceived benefits of enduring outweigh the pain.

I've suffered through multi-week hikes with blisters and a too-heavy pack because I loved the views, the remoteness, the self-reliance and asceticism. And also because there were no good alternatives, because bailing midway would have been a different kind of emotional and logistical pain.

I've also bailed on things. Not a ton of them but always with good reason. I quit a job I hated after trying to suck it up for too long. I quit my college sports team after barely getting played for two years. I left a long-term relationship when I realized my partner wasn't treating me well.

I don't think of those bails as failures. They just didn't work out, and I'm happier without those things in my life. In fact I'm proud of myself for putting aside my pride and fear of being a 'quitter' in order to pull the plug on them. The hikes I suffered through aren't successes, either. With experience I've gotten better at preparing and packing, so even longer and more challenging hikes are easier for me now. Better views and more comfort is where it's at. No need to suffer just for the sake of suffering.

I think what I have a hard time with is the word "suffer". I learned in the military that what your mind thinks your limits are and what different aspects of your body's limits are can be very different things. I have also seen this taken too far. The latter, I would call suffering.

So, is there a skill behind it? Sort of.

- mental fortitude and awareness to squeeze the juice when you are absolutely exhausted are skills. I realized this when I was winded, my muscles were sore, and I could feel the minute shifts in load on my back during forced marches. I learned to listen to my body and beg the question, "Am I fooling myself into being done, or am I hurt?" One time I answered that question with the latter, the rest of the time I would stare ahead, hum (or sing) something, mind my posture, snack, and sip water. Before I knew it, my time would slip by. This skill progressed over time.

- commitment and planning are skills and one precipitates the other. Some folks wanted to do the bare minimum and expected maximal results. I was not an infantryman, but I snagged someone who had been on more deployments than I had (that was an infantryman) and said, "Show me". He showed me how to align weight distribution for different terrain, what kinds of socks to wear when, how to dress for hikes, what to look for in boots, where to store snacks, how to walk, how to configure my plate carrier, how much water to carry per mile, etc... When I attempted to pass this knowledge on, some listened and some didn't.

“ When I attempted to pass this knowledge on, some listened and some didn't”

Is there a manual?

> Suffering, in and of itself, isn't a skill. You will endure iff you want to endure. That is, if the perceived benefits of enduring outweigh the pain.

This is what gets me through marathons. You hit the real hard part around mile 20 and fuck it, running another 6 is easier than going back the other way. Faster you run faster you’re done.

At least for running, my experience is that suffering is most definitely a skill that you can improve. You get faster when you realise that the level of discomfort that stopped you the last run could actually be so much worse, and yet somehow you can still run faster.

I agree that suffering for its own sake probably isn’t worth it, but if you want to run faster/farther, getting used to suffering will let you improve.

Don’t over train, but don’t always listen when your body wants to stop, unless it’s joint pain :)

For people who enjoy the suffering itself; well that’s a different hobby than running, and I won’t judge.

Hm, I don't correlate suffering with the feeling I have when pushing myself to increase my morning run from 4 miles to 5 miles.

I liked the original quote up top:

> That is, if the perceived benefits of enduring outweigh the pain.

Then again, I just looked up the actual definition for "suffering" and it's much less dramatic then what I associate with suffering. Simply "to submit to or be forced to endure" which, in that sense, I'd agree.

> You get faster when ...

To be pedantic, you get faster by running more volume. To do that, you have to make most of it easy. Even when I'm hammering out 50+ miles and 2+ quality runs in the weeks before a race, I'm only truly suffering for about 30 minutes each week. Even threshold work rarely crosses the line into real suffering.

I don't buy the narrative that ultra endurance running is some kind of noble self inflicted torture. Most of the experience is just plain fun. That's why I do it.

Recommend "The Lost Art of Running" by Shane Benzie. He's trained people to complete lots of ultra events, including on pretty low milage - focussing on form/technique.

I agree with everything you said but I want to highlight one more condition: There must be a reasonable chance that the suffering will end if one toughs it out. It doedn't have to actually end or be highly probable but there has to be realistic hope. This is what differs some chronic conditions from the other cases talked about here.

I can't run now due to a knee injury ( I cycle, hike etc ) but 20 years ago when I did go running after 5-10 mins my body would say it didn't want to do that. If I played squash for 2 hours (running almost non-stop) my body would be fine with it. What I'm saying is, it's 90% mental and you can endure it if you want to...see Goggins.

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