Hacker News Reader

Comment by rad_gruchalski | Hacker News Reader

> As a whole, H2 cars are also quite heavy. You literally require everything that is in an EV plus multiple extra subsystems that are incredibly complex and not light by any means.

Toyota Mirai 2 curb weight 1925 kg vs Tesla P100 curb weight 2241 kg. Both have the range of 500 to 507 km. But with a Mirai, given that the infra for filling up would exist, I’d spend 5 minutes filling up instead of 40 at a charging station. My math is okay.

> more wind turbines everywhere (that people already hate)

Yeah, I have dozens of those around. But you know what, more battery cars also need those so it’s not like we will be removing these soon.

View on HN

> I’d spend 5 minutes filling up instead of 40 at a charging station. My math is okay.

On most weeks, an EV owner spends zero hours on fuel ups since they plug in at home. They will also save significantly on power since it's much cheaper to distribute power to your home than to drive hydrogen all over the countryside.

Charging speed is preventing a lot of people from operating EVs, because there is no charger where we park overnight.

A fair enough statement. A bit of an electric divide.

I'll put it a bit differently though. Setting aside environmental concerns, why would you buy a hydrogen car as opposed to a regular old gasoline car?

Charging from home is a substantial benefit of EVs, performance is another. The Mirai is neither a particularly performant car, nor can you charge from home. Why would you switch to a car with a non-existent fuel network? Even once the network exists, why switch?

Obviously, the environmental issues still exist, but right now that is the only reason you'd buy the Mirai instead of many less expensive non H2 options. The Tesla is interesting even without the environmental aspects.

Eventually, you want the ownership experience of the gasoline car without the emissions. So much of the argument against them are short-term only. You have to assume there will be fuel cell cars that are fast and desirable as the technology improves.

> Eventually, you want the ownership experience of the gasoline car without the emissions

No I don't. I abhor getting into the car and realizing I need to stop at the gas station before I can drive to the trail head and ride with my friends. The idea of having a car that is ready to perform at maximum every time I step out the front door has a tremendous appeal. I hate gas stations, they stink, they are a waste of my time, often when I don't have time to spare.

Maybe you want to replicate that experience. I'll pass.

Unless you need to drive beyond the limits of your battery, at which point a gasoline powered vehicle makes more sense. I get the feeling your belief system is a post hoc rationalization since you’re just ignoring a major use case.

If it really bothers you, then you probably be able to refuel your fuel cell car at home at some point in the future. So you can avoid the refueling station altogether with fuel cell cars too.

> Unless you need to drive beyond the limits of your battery, at which point a gasoline powered vehicle makes more sense. I get the feeling your belief system is a post hoc rationalization since you’re just ignoring a major use case.

I have a pretty good handle on my driving. Its been over a year since I've driven more than 300 miles in a day. Even when I was driving 500 miles 20 times a year, that's still only 20 Supercharger stops versus easily twice as many stops for gas that I've made during those same years.

> If it really bothers you, then you probably be able to refuel your fuel cell car at home at some point in the future.

I won't have to bother, by the time those are affordable and efficient enough to make sense, batteries will be a fraction of their current weight. So there will still be no point in some arbitrary extra steps cutting into efficiency.

Your own driving needs are not everyone else's drivers needs. 20 supercharger uses per year means you wasted more time than refueling a gasoline car 40 times a year. Fuel cell cars that can do both would be more convenient than either.

Fuel cells of the future will also be superior to fuel cells of today. That likely includes a dramatic increase in efficiency that will great reduce or eliminate this issue.

Mirai 182 hp / 300Nm, seems to me they arent all that comparable.

If one needs 3s 0 to 62mph, sure.

*Edit: also, compare the price.

Mirai 2 will cost €63900. Basic Model S is €81200+ (even 10% tariffs are not getting it close) and P100d is what, €130k+? Nuts.

You are comparing a hypothetically viable thing to an actual shipping, proven product. Without seeing the hydro network in place, seeing what retail prices are on hydrogen in volume, this is all supposition. While the Mirai is shipping, the fueling network is sparse and incapable of handling more than a few cars. Hundreds of thousands of EVs are out there in use. Fuel Cell cars are largely in prolonged beta while they figure out how to deliver fuel to a car that may never ship in volume.

Look at how amazing and simply the Mirai 2 is:

https://global.toyota/pages/news/images/2020/12/09/1200/005....

compared to:

https://468y981o84o43v2wo2600a0gcj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/w...

And one of these cars is incredibly fast, the other is a not a performance car. I can't find good data on Mirai 2 but I think the S is a considerably bigger car.

At least in comparison between the Mirai and the Model 3, the Model 3 is lighter.

Of course, the reality is that batteries are getting lighter fast.

> Yeah, I have dozens of those around. But you know what, more battery cars also need those so it’s not like we will be removing these soon.

Again, the simply fact is fuel cells are considerably less efficient. Therefore you need more of them.

https://img.drivemag.net/media/default/0001/96/Battery-elect...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com