Amazon rainforest plots sold via Facebook Marketplace ads

This is one of those rare times I agree with facebook. Why is this Facebook's problem? Sounds like Brazil should be enforcing their laws better. Facebook hosts for-sale postings, how reasonable is it for them to vet every post against scams and illegality?

Brazilian here: the government will say in TV it's doing its best effort to protect the forest.

However, the president is appointing farmers and non-technical people all over those entities trying to protect the forest, and they are slowly giving rights, permits, etc. to deforestation.

And sadly, despite this being tracked and advertised by TV or other news entities, very little is done to deter these criminals all over the current administration.

MAYBE international lobbying could work with Brazil, as Germany threaten to reduce the money it gives to protect the forest in 2019 (I don't remember exactly when).

And let's not forget that the Amazon forest does not end in Brazilian borders - it goes on in many countries over there. People just assume it's a Brazilian problem (I know a large portion is located in Brazil's side), but it's more a 10-country problem, not to say, a humanity problem...

> Facebook said it was "ready to work with local authorities", but indicated it would not take independent action of its own to halt the trade.

Huh? If the ads were for firearms or child slaves, would Facebook's response also be that it was ready to work with local authorities, but would not take independent action?

So how can Facebook take this kind of flippant approach to this, but not on other items? The, not even hypocrisy, but just complete lack of fundamental human decency and respect is revolting.

"Many of the sellers openly admit they do not have a land title, the only document which proves ownership of land under Brazilian law."

In which case, what are they even selling? Who would buy? Even if you "buy", aren't you then still illegally occupying land?

I think this highlights how ridiculous it is to expect Facebook to enforce laws. For a given plot of land in the Amazon, how is Facebook going to know the title history of that land. If you have ever paid a title company in the US for a search you know that process takes weeks and theres a much better paper trail here then for some little plot the heart of the Amazon.

I'm guessing FB doesn't care either way and would be happy to comply to remove a listing once a Brazilian court determines that a sale is illegal but we don't want Facebook being a defacto Brazilian court.

I lived in Brazil's capital, Brasília, for many years. Illegal land grabs were very, very common there. This wasn't in the jungle. This was a modern city, and there were as many middle class and upper middle class land grabbers as poor ones. This infuriated me. Since the upper middle class neighborhoods were becoming too expensive to buy into, rich people simply invaded protected land and started building there. Or owners of large farmland transformed the land into urban plots and sold the plots illegally, mostly to rich middle and upper middle class people. And everyone knew it was illegal. Everyone. Still to this day, a decade later, I still know people who have very nice homes in very nice neighborhoods, and they still don't have an official, legal land title. They have some semi-bogus, semi-official 'land use' sort of document, and they can't legalize it, and it is all a complicated legal mess, but hey, they got to buy very cheap land and live the middle class dream, right? Who cares if it was illegal, who cares if it the land was supposed to be preserved. And these are the same people who complain that we have corrupt politicians. Really, these are the same people. Everyone in Brazil blames our problems on corrupt politicians, but everyone pulls this kind of 'semi-legal' crap. That's why Brazil sucks. Too bad it's very, very good also.

This article is a bit sensational: it doesn't mention these plots are being sold via any craigslist type of service, not just facebook.

I have seen another listing service push back a little against such postings, but given the ample space between the law and illegality, it is hard for them to identify semi-legitimate postings from illegitimate ones.

That space exists, because the transfer of property came with excessive taxes, procedures and costs the poor could not or didn't want to afford. So children inherited the property but not formally. Then they would sell their rights to the property rights. And so on. The "cartórios" (registration offices) register these contracts instead. The property itself slides into informality. In the end the government itself is to blame.

For anyone supporting Facebook, I am also on the fence but please consider this:

Facebook and any similar Internet based vehicle (I use this term instead of marketplace, eCommerce, forum, etc. just to generalize) allows sellers* and buyers to reach each other in ways and over distances that were not possible.

This is the effect and gift of the Internet and I am aware of this personally. But, even if individual sellers* or buyers can not be expected to keep up with policies or strict checking, Facebook or any other major, multi-billion $ Internet vehicle has the responsibility since they are pushing their platforms to these people around the world.

Just take a moment to think - Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Google, Uber, AirBnB... are all products from a tiny corner of* the planet and have immense impact on how business and communication occurs across the globe. The impact of negligence might be a lot worse that what the managers sitting in the HQ might understand.

We all have a responsibility, yes. But the Internet giants have more means to do what is needed. They run the business to solely monetize and they are aware of loopholes. They are not naive. Unless citizens of the Internet ask, this will not change.

* Typo fixes

So corrupt local baron uses Facebook to illegally sell and protect the buyer that does an illegal deforestation of sold area? And this is Facebook problem...how? Sounds like anyone who is a medium for ads can and will host this type of ads.

I am pretty sure I can do the same on Washington Post, should I've be such a local baron.

The Brazilian government doesn’t seem to care either.

When I search for this, it's hard to look past the poverty, people who's dwellings are handmade and have no documentation.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/manaus/propertyforsale

I guess 50 million people living in real poverty is just a statistic.

For all the illegal comments, these dirt poor people living in slums are also living illegally. They probably have no formal property documentation.

I had a star named after me once.

I saw entire Teak/Hardwood plantations for sale on E-Bay in Nicaragua or some other central American country. Not sure if they’re still on there. They were like 800k+.

I don’t think they were in the rainforest though

Illegally sold, that’s the distinction the headline misses.

I was hoping the land was up for sale in order to be protected from deforestation by its current owners.

That's illegal, can't claim ownership

Good for Brazilians, I hope they can use their resources and improve the country.

I was wondering what the trick is, as selling a place without holding its title may not command a very high price, even if you clear it and make it ready for business - for cattle ranching in the case of the rainforest.

Turns out it's similar to the concept of adverse occupation:

> Another factor driving the illegal land market is the expectation of amnesty.

> Mr Alves revealed he was working with others to lobby politicians to help them legally own stolen land.

> A common strategy is to deforest the land and then plead with politicians to abolish its protected status, on the basis it no longer serves its original purpose.

> The land grabbers can then officially buy the plots from the government, thereby legalising their claims.

If the government didn't do that, it wouldn't happen! It's a system of wrong incentives: the executive and the judiciary should be as separate as possible!

> For its part, Facebook claims trying to deduce which sales are illegal would be too complex a task for it to carry out itself, and should be left to the local judiciary and other authorities

If property rights were more clearly defined, it wouldn't happen either.

I see that as a compelling case for defining property rights outside of the government greasy finger reach - maybe a blockchain based register, so land grab attempts clearly stand out, and can be used in name and shame of the land thieves.