Hacker News Reader

Comment by acangiano | Hacker News Reader

> Italians are, well, Italians

Care to elaborate on this? "Blacks are, well, blacks" would sound racist. I'm not sure this highly upvoted comment of yours is much nobler in spirit.

View on HN

"Racism" is a somewhat vague term for which I believe the current usage is primarily born out of the American civil rights movement. Europeans on the other hand have been comfortable with labeling various national characteristics for centuries -- various national characteristics that are undoubtedly true. These come in negative, positive, and contested categories. For instance, the British are known for their "stiff upper lip," Germans (traditionally, not contemporarily) for their warlike sentiment, etc.

In America we have the sense that these things are mutable, and this is partially true, but it is unreasonable to expect people to change overnight, and it is especially unreasonable to expect that some external force (e.g. purely economic forces) will produce the massive changes that might be perceived as necessary for a society to adapt to modernity as the Economist writers perceive as necessary and laudable.

In any case, I think it is unacceptable to focus only on the negative aspects of a people. "Blacks are, well, blacks" would generally be racist since virtually no one would use that in a positive sense. Italians often self-perceive that their resistance to the way things are done in a capitalist world is based on some inner nobility -- and although I generally disagree, I think there is still a grain of truth there. Besides, Italians are among the most openly racist peoples in Europe -- people from Northern Italy are even comfortable calling Southern Italy part of Africa (not meant in a positive sense!).

I've been living in Italy for two years now and I have to say I don't see this resistance to the capitalist world you assert they have. In the North, where I live, the economy is large and lively, people are rich, and they work hard. There is, of course, a palpable difference between the way of life here and in Northern Europe, but it isn't as big as I think most people expect (the food and coffee are better). It feels very similar to a typical European capitalist economy.

Of course, that's only half of the story. Southern Italy, despite it's idyllic landscapes and hedonism, has some serious economic, demographic, and social problems and they don't deny it. I have never felt they wore it as a badge of honor to signify some inner nobility, as you posit. Most Italians I've talked to want to solve these problems and believe they're actively working to do it. They don't feel the fact that they enjoy a good quality of life impedes their ability to develop a strong economy - they think the best of both worlds is possible.

Granted, I am conflating Northern and Southern Italy and most of my knowledge of both is from Italian expatriates who have deliberately left Italy to work in other countries due to dissatisfaction with the conditions there.

As for "They don't feel the fact that they enjoy a good quality of life impedes their ability to develop a strong economy," they could simply be wrong. Certain aspects of traditional cultures (e.g. long meal times and afternoon nap times) may simply be incompatible with increased productivity. You may want to have both, but this may be impossible.

"Nobility" may not be the best word to use, but certainly there is something laudable about valuing the family highly, etc. I would, however, posit that aspects of what this means in the present world indicate that you can't have all of the aspects of a traditional world (e.g long meal times, living with your grandparents) and expect economic improvement.

From what I've seen the long meals and afternoon naps are a myth (even in Spain people don't do that anymore). In fact, I'm willing to assert Italians work harder than the French. They have a 40 hour work week (the French have 35) and three weeks vacation (5 in France, by law). The French are exactly as hedonistic as the Italians, so whatever incompatibilities the Italian way of life has with a strong economy, they would be a factor in France as well. However, I have yet to read the article or comment on HN supporting the urgent need to completely restructure the French economy.

So how do you explain the lesser GDP growth?

When I came to work in th US I was actually totally surprised that americans work so many hours less. In northern Italy it's unthinkable to go he at 5PM.

Just because you're comfortable with it doesn't make it right. I am sure a lot of slaveholders were comfortable owning slaves, it's just the way things were.

I've noticed more and more over the last decade a confusion between race and culture. Race != culture. Perhaps youngsters are being taught that criticising a culture is racism. It is not.

I'm perfectly comfortable with criticising a culture.

I see a lot of people are comfortable drawing arbitrary lines grouping people together into categories and calling it something else. Whether you want to get into whether Italians are a race or a culture is a semantic issue, and it completely skips the point. You're lumping a group of people together and making broad (negative) stereotypes about them without nuance or understanding.

Germans were traditionally known for beer, singing, and culture. It was the Prussians who were known for their militarism.

Yes, and the Wirtschaftswunder [1], the huge industralisation and production of West-Germany after WWII. Whether that's a legacy of the traditional Meister-Geselle (master-student) and Zünfte (guilds), or modern capitalism, remains to be seen.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirtschaftswunder

Not exactly. See, for example, Tacitus (c. 98 CE):

Repose is unwelcome to their race, and toils and perils afford them a better opportunity of distinguishing themselves; they are unable, without war and violence, to maintain a large train of followers. The companion requires from the liberality of his chief, the warlike steed, the bloody and conquering spear: and in place of pay, he expects to be supplied with a table, homely indeed, but plentiful. The funds for this munificence must be found in war and rapine; nor are they so easily persuaded to cultivate the earth, and await the produce of the seasons, as to challenge the foe, and expose themselves to wounds; nay, they even think it base and spiritless to earn by sweat what they might purchase with blood.

I think the context is important -- and the OP is not talking about Italians as a race but Italians as a nation with certain characteristics. Read this way, it's more akin to saying, "Americans are, well, American."

And probably be just as wrong. Trying to group people is always fraught with peril, but doing it in a dismissive way ("are, well,") is really not going to help the point. Italy isn't a mono-culture, neither is America.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com