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Comment by araneae | Hacker News Reader

I'd add "Everything happens for a reason" to the "nevers" list. My mother has leukemia, and her cousin said that to her.

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Seriously +10000.

When my brother died, people would say that a lot to me. It's extremely common in my culture (Mormonism) and I even believe it, but that's something that you need to say to yourself, and not have others say to you. When other people say it to you, it's like someone punched you in the face with what you should believe, and it's not comforting, nor does it feel good in any respect.

Sorry for your loss. It's interesting that it is a worldview adopted by many Christian groups, since for example, the book of Job from the bible is basically on this topic: to simplify, Job becomes sick, friends come and say everything happens with a reason, Job says that's bullshit, God rewards him for it. This is of course my somewhat personal reading of it, so it might be a serious misinterpretation.

Not quite. He's rewarded for not cursing God.

Choose your source...some one argue one is more accurate than the other:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_%28biblical_figure%29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1&versio...

There are several treaties on the nature of faith in rabbinic law. The case of Job is often exemplified as a case of "true" faith as opposed to faith not for faith sake.

The true faith, does not seek reward for good behavior, nor bothers trying to understand the divine will, it simply accepts the Yoke of the heavens. in the case of Job.

He does not ponder the reason, it is all the same to him "...the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away..."

I read Job as a story about God settling a bet with Satan, by allowing him to torture the most righteous man he could find to see if he would break - killing his wives, his children, causing him agony and taking away everything he loves. When he doesn't break God shows how generous he is by giving him new wealth, wives and children.

If there is a God, this is a compelling example of the value he places on human life.

I never say that as it doesn't seem right to me. What good reason could God have for the loss of a good man or child that is without sin?

If you're a Christian however, you do have a small comfort that death may only be the beginning. And that's really what Christians should hear - that the loved one is in a better place.

And yes I know, that sucks too as how could you really know that she's in a better place? But I experienced this myself and it sticks in the back of your subconscious, eventually giving you comfort.

It's not that I don't realize he's in a better place, as nerdy as it sounds, I guess I'm all about optimizing short term happiness. I realize that eventually, the knowledge of seeing him again someday is amazing, but in the immediate term, it's not really worthwhile.

It'd be a bit like getting a limb amputated. You know that it's going to be for your benefit, but while you're going through it, I doubt the comfort of "oh it's ok, at least your not dead!" doesn't exactly optimize your happiness. I'd wager if you're there for someone, showing your love and support, gossiping, etc., you'd likely do more good.

As an atheist I would be seriously upset if someone said that to me while I was sick or after losing someone.

However, if you really believe it in your heart of hearts, then shouldn't it be comforting? Similar to 'they're in a better place now' -- it seems like if both people believe it's true, then it should be comforting to talk about.

For me, I honestly can't see how that's supposed to comfort you. They're gone from you now. It doesn't fucking matter if you're going to see them again, because the hurt is all about the actual data that you currently have. I can't wait to see my family again, but I still cry about them on a monthly basis, if not more.

Maybe I'm a more "thinking" guy than other religious types, but for me, religion is about understanding who I am now, how to deal with life now, how to treat people better now, etc. It's not about some mysterious heaven / hell thing that scares you into being a good person. Religion for me is separated from mythology, though they do play into each other. (IE the nuts and bolts of how a religion comes into being are important, but the teachings and purpose of said religion are much more important.)

Given that perspective, with a catastrophic event, "now" will always suck, without exception. You have to work through now in various ways. The new reality is what you need help with, not perceiving the person in some sort of blissful future state.

That's why things like "I love you", etc., play so much better for me. I need a shoulder to cry on when I dream about my brother as if he's still fine and was hiding. I need people to help support me through hard times, not people to deflect reality and pretend like it's all going to be ok.

</rant>

I feel ya bro. I think other religious people often don't grasp as well the fact that we're not robots -- emotions ask for comfort, not to be rationalized away. Which is funny because people often think of religious people as emotional.

It's not that people saying dumb things are rational in any way, but more about people feeling the need to say something, anything to make it better and it kind of is an uncontrollable urge.

Think about this, even as a theist you feel the need to ask yourself, why did your mother/brother/child had to die while others are still living, an irrational question by all means, that begets dumb answers; but it's part of a healthy mourning process and does help you get over it (IMHO).

I also don't think it's about religious people versus the others, as people say dumb things regardless of their beliefs.

I think this is a time in which it pays off to be religious. For instance, I do fall into agnosticism and question my religion quite frequently, but I just can't be an atheist simply because I cannot accept that the people I love (including my child for whom I'm capable to give my life if needed) will one day go into non-existence, sometimes painfully. That's an idea I just can't live with.

My mother believes in God but she reacted quite negatively to it. To her it seemed as if her cousin was telling her that God was punishing her.

Perhaps the most irritating aspect of the phrase "everything happens for a reason" is that it is a truism from a scientific point of view. Of course, everything happens for a reason. But the phrase is usually meant to imply that a higher power has a reason for causing events, and that there is a reason in a cosmic sense for events to happen, as if they were part of a larger plan designed specifically for you, the victim.

The other variation would be that "God has a plan", which is ironic since, philosophically speaking if there is a God, it is impossible to know how He thinks or acts. Even answering if this statement is true or false would mean that we are Gods ourselves.

The correct version would be "God works in mysterious ways".

Also, "everything happens for a reason" is a truism in the sense that every action has a reaction, but otherwise if you replace "reason" with "purpose" it fails the falsifiability test.

> Perhaps the most irritating aspect of the phrase "everything happens for a reason" > is that it is a truism from a scientific point of view

I see where you're going (and you're responding directly to the stated pointless platitude), but I'd inject here consideration about using "reason" vs using "cause"; more specifically, "reason" suggests to me something intended, whereas "cause" says that something happened that led to this happened, personal intents aside. </twocents>

It depends on who is saying this to whom. Some who are sick will say this about themselves.

Also, you can adjust this saying to "Everything happens for a reason, right?" As to show you are equally as hopeful that there may be something greater at play.

But I agree mostly. Just coming up to someone who is very sick and saying this can be the WRONG thing to say.

It's classic human behavior to look for some cause of whatever is happening. Sometimes it's to transfer the blame (smoking your whole life and lung cancer is somehow not your fault) and other times it's simply looking for any explanation because we as humans want explanations (it's gods plan, everything happens for a reason, etc...).

"Everything happens for a reason" is about teleology, not etiology. When people say so, they're implying a goal, not a cause.

Objectively speaking, this is true, there is a reason why something happened. Weak immune system, unhealthy life stile, genetic disease, wrong place at the wrong time, exposed to toxic chemicals/environment, aging, the body has to fail eventually and is just a matter of what goes first depending on many variables I mentioned above. However, to imply that it happened because it was destined to happen no matter what, I don't think so.

"It is as it is" is a better way to say that there is no fucking reason...

The Zen/Tolle approach always sounded better to me, but can anyone really say or do anything that will make the sick one feel better for more than a couple of minutes?

I hope your cousin got slapped! My goodness!

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