Why I'm Not Working on my Startup (yet) | Hacker News Reader

Why I'm Not Working on my Startup (yet)

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Having a bit of a runway is good, and real-world job experience can pay dividends. Some suggest that you'd get the same out of a failed startup, but both routes have their advantages.

One thing I learned, sadly later than I wish I had -- before starting a startup practice living cheap. Start really considering if you really need that iPhone or that new monitor, buy nothing but generic stuff, have one beer at the bar instead of three, get a house-mate. Cook!

As I was building towards going full-time on the startup I managed to get my cost of living down to less than half of what it was, with no major lifestyle changes. That'll give you a nice pad and the skills to stretch it when you do go full-time.

You can also spend the time learning; nothing teaches like experience, but you can spend time building up your contacts, researching your field, learning as much as possible about startups, setting up infrastructure, searching out good co-founders -- so that when you're ready to run you can go at it full speed.

Living cheap also has benefit in that it often forces you to assess what you need and want in life and ultimately what is really important to you.

There is a certain pleasure to be had to free oneself of the materialistic lifestyle we are often indoctrinated into following through nurture, especially in many western countries/cultures (e.g. process of society and education often teaches get a job, buy a house, get a car, get better job, bigger house, newer car etc. much of which is not really necessary).

When you earn enough not to worry about food and bills, you can really begin to do the things you want and learning to live cheap certainly helps.

The freedom is liberating and truly the best things in life are free (or often surprisingly cheap).

Most assumptions you have can only be verified by you.

My advice is: try doing something on the side first, something that people can actually use, share it with friend and see how you feel about feedbacks. I found for myself that the greatest motivator is your will to build something useful; your major test will be how you bounce back from negatives.

How many hours you put in, when do you work even whether you should leave your job or not will depend of your level of motivation, it’s hard to build a startup without sacrifices.

My advice is: try doing something on the side first, something that people can actually use, share it with friend and see how you feel about feedbacks.

Well, what I've found is that most of my side projects don't get very far, because I invariably end up pulling a bunch of long nights at my main paying gig, and that saps the motivation considerably.

Also, maybe I need ruder friends, but I've found much better results sharing stuff with strangers. They're more honest. Friends are biased by their desire to make you feel good.

Swap your day around. It sounds crazy, but from the sound of it, you're crazy already, so that shouldn't be a change.

What I mean is:

* Wake up at 3am

* Work until 1 hour before it's time to go to the office

* Have a 1-hour nap

* Go to work, and work until you can't work anymore

* Go home, sleep

You'll have no social life for about 6 months, but you'll spend the best hours of each day working on your baby. After 6 months, you'll probably have something worth launching and/or quitting for.

This is not for the sane, but it's doable. I did it, and I don't regret it.

Post it HN. I dont think HN readers are biased(even if some of them are your friends) :)

I'm not so sure. The posters may not be biased, but that doesn't mean that the comments aren't. I've seen some ideas that were just not all that great get lavished with praise.

It's possible that I just missed what was so useful about the site in question... but it's also possible that those who didn't like the site didn't comment. I didn't like the site, or indeed care about it at all, and I'm not the type to want to hurt someone's feelings, so I didn't comment on it.

Friends or not, I think the best feedback is likely from users who have the problem you're trying to solve. The best question is probably "why wouldn't you use this thing?"

More often, I see feedback (from all sources) focus on implementation, when the real response should be "your basic idea is dumb."

Why not build and solve a problem you have?

Actually, I have two side projects that are exactly that. But I keep ignoring them. That's the problem :) My user is getting upset with me, and about to look to my competitors.

Perhaps the problem isn't painful enough?

Why not build and solve a problem you have?

because he's following the herd

Hi, troll.

You don't need ruder friends, you need a partner or two who are equally enthusiastic, nay who are BANKING on that project succeeding. Hopefully they are banking on it because they are really passionate about the idea and really want to get out of the boring day job.

Like you, I spent almost 3 years trying to start one project after another that fizzled out. For some I even had a partner. Unfortunately it was always a "side project" for one or both of us. Till I reached a point of desperation and frustration with not doing my own thing, and till I found partners passionate about the project just because, I found it pretty hard to get up at 5 to code too. Now I know I'll let not just myself but also them down if I show up without getting my stuff done.

Seriously, the formula to finally starting a startup is simple

a) Get desperate (passionate) b) Find similarly desperate (passionate) folks.

This is exactly what I planned when I left school. Cool! My plan was to work for 5 years at a job I at least LIKED- put away enough to live for 1-2 years without doing anything at all- and then work on whatever startup idea I figured would be best at the time. Why did I choose 5 years? Honestly, it was because most companies vest employees in their retirement plan of choice after 5 years.

Fast forward to 5 years later (last June 15th) and I'm ready! Money saved, credit card balances at 0, no debt, no obligations! I've even started to work on some of the code for my idea. The only thing I didn't count on was the housing market... so now I just have to hang around my current job until my place sells. anybody want to buy a condo in Chicago?

Seriously though- from where I'm sitting, it's a great plan. Give yourself the opportunity and ability to do something amazing, and chances are you will! Not to mention, if you are at least managing your money successfully, and not going in to debt- you're doing vastly better than many Americans already.

Good Luck!! :cross posted from comments:

I feel that I've learned an incredible amount since I left my job and started my start-up - and I think that's largely an indication of how little I actually knew when I jumped in.

If I can offer anything for consideration, it's this:

When do you want to make your mistakes? Now, or in a few years? While working for a large company, or while living off your savings? While doing stuff "on the side", or while doing it "for real"?

I am not advocating one choice over the other, but this might be another useful angle to approach the problem.

This is a very good point. Also, the mistakes you make at a big company tend to be very specialized to the product you are working on. When you start up on your own the range of mistakes you can make blows up by an order of magnitude. You start learning a lot, fast, but this also means you have to be able to take failure in your stride.

A startup will fish out and highlight every single hole in your knowledge, skills and personality. You better have the optimism, the enthusiasm and the friends (partners) who'll help you deal with that. I think this might be one of the major reasons single person startups often fail.

Thanks, that's actually helpful.

Personally, I don't see "living off my savings" as a bad time to make mistakes. Webdevs are usually in short supply, and we're past the first speculative bubble, so "get a job" will likely always be an option. I can "retire" every 5 years :)

There's more than one way to do it, and this is a more deliberate path. good plan, seriously. I quit my job early this year, have enough savings to last for a while (it's easy when you live like a grad student), and am exploring ideas.

It's clear from your post and comments that you're a very smart guy. I can tell you think so too, but I'd bet you're even smarter (relatively) than you realize. I agree that if you follow your plan, you're likely to be successful, if you don't give up just a bit too soon and go back to the solid, dependable paychecks.

My only two cents concerns your patience. I'll admit, my only experience working for someone else was a year-long internship right after college, but despite it being a sweet gig in a beautiful place, I hated it, and it was all I could do to make it to the end of the year. Since then, it's been only startups for me, and it's so incomparably different and better that I just have to weigh in that your 3 year plan is a little too patient and risk-averse for me.

It sounds like you love your job already. That's definitely key. But if you wait another 3 years to go for it, and find out you're fantastic at it and are having the time of your life, won't it seem like you should have given it a go even sooner? For instance, by getting a cofounder willing to pay the company bills for a while as an even trade for your fantastic ideas? Seems worth considering if you'd both rather start sooner than later. Making your own stuff full time is so fun.

Bootstrap your startup to beta while still at Yahoo. Sure you'll have to put up with not working on what you love 100% of the time but it'll be better than 0% and probably close to 100% seeing how you seem to like Yahoo o.k.

I am in a situation very similar to yours - good employer, o.k. hours and an overdue startup. I am doing this right now. It's long days and busy weekends and try as I may, a couple of days a week I don't get any sleep. But there is both satisfaction and a reduction in risk in doing this for me. For me, it's not the financial risk that matters as much but I just wasn't sure I would be able to maintain my focus and enthusiasm doing just a startup - amongst other reasons because my cofounders are non-technical.

On the other hand the fact that my cofounders have funded the startup, pay me to do this (on top of my salary at bigco) and handle all the boring non-technical tasks while still letting me be an equal part of strategy and fundraising - all these make my situation a bit different from yours.

I encourage you to work on one or more of your ideas sooner rather than later, even while working full-time.

You seem to be at the stage in your life where you could pursue the YCombinator program (or similar programs). This is one way to fund your ideas without going the self-funded route.

You seem to have the skills that you'll always be able to get jobs at Yahoo or elsewhere. You don't really have much to lose.

Actually, my reading was he (like me) was well past the stage of life where YC funding would be helpful. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a first round YC bet is something like "cost of living for two college students for a summer". To an established professional with a stable job, this is noise: most of us could fund such a company for three months right out of our bank accounts.

The benefit to doing the YC thing is the exposure to sources for later funding rounds, and the networking that comes with being part of the community. The money isn't the draw for anyone but a brand new graduate. It's just there to make sure no one starves while working on the project.

I don't think any of YC fundees really need YC funding. Most of their friends and families would be able to sponsor a summer's worth of living expenses. I think YC's true value lies in the community of cofounders, connections of PG and Co and the visibility that being a YC startup generates. So, a being funded b YC would be useful to anyone who needs help in these three areas even if the have money. I have enough money to live comfortably for a year saved up but if the US immigration system was more lenient I would have applied to YC in a heartbeat.

If the choices are: 1) get funding, and do it now, and give up even 1% of my company, or 2) wait a year or two, and do it on my own dime, but own it 100%, I'm leaning towards #2.

That seems like a truly bizarre "hoarding" mentality. What about a co-founder? What about an employee? No stock options for anyone?

I think a better attitude would be: "I will give up equity only if it raises the likelihood and magnitude of success".

Some of your comments after your post see to indicate that you feel that it's easy to get funded (it's not) and that you have to give up "creative control" of your business when you take funding (you don't). Getting the right investors gives you a HUGE advantage (if growth/exits figure into your plans-- maybe they don't).

It's not that it's "easy" to get funding compared with, say, getting a cheeseburger. But it's far from impossible. And I think that I could do it.

That being said, it might be impossible. And not relying on it would be a safer position. The point is, if it's easy enough to avoid, why not just save up the money, and then do it?

I certainly don't mind sharing creative control with fellow creators. In fact, it's absolutely necessary, and almost always a profitable move. Two people are more than twice as productive as one, by a significant measure.

YC doesn't take a huge cut, and the folks behind it are smart enough to know that the best investments do the best when they're mostly left alone.

Growth figures into my plans, but less than other factors. The way I see it, I'm in this for the love of creating things, and the paycheck is so that rent and feeding don't get in the way. At Yahoo, I have less say in what happens, and it's frustrating to see the wrong decisions get made. Being able to say "I told you so" rings hollow after a while. (To be fair, Yahoo is a lot less awful than a lot of other companies, and overall, a great place to work. I highly recommend it.)

In any transaction, it makes sense to put yourself in the best position possible. Selling 5% of a 10 million dollar company is better than selling 10% of a 5 million dollar company; same $$, half the price.

The best position possible and the most equity aren't the same thing. If you can sell 1% of your company to an entity that adds 2% to the value, it's a good bet.

Regarding:

"The point is, if it's easy enough to avoid, why not just save up the money, and then do it?"

Here's why not. You take 2 years to save your money and then roll the dice. If you win big, you get 100% of your exit. If you lose, you spend all of your money. If you raise money, you get more funds than you'll save in 2 years. If you spend it carefully, presumably this will up your chance for success. If you win big, you get 75% of your exit. If you lose, you spend all of someone else's money. And you don't spent two years of a finite life doing something that doesn't turn your crank. :-) Add to that that the fact right investor(s) increase your tiny chance of success by a little bit without requiring that you give up any creative control...

Well, there are lots of good reasons.

I'm not disagreeing with the path you're on-- it just seems like you dismissed the alternative for the wrong reasons.

Thanks for the insight.

Losing someone else's money is a good point. On the other hand, I can live incredibly cheaply (and have in the past), and these days developing an idea is effectively free, apart from living expenses.

And you don't spent two years of a finite life doing something that doesn't turn your crank. :-)

Spending two years hacking without a boss would turn my crank plenty, even if all that comes of it is that I learn I'm not cut out for running a company, and go back to a job. I don't hate my job. The work itself is great; I just dislike working for someone else.

You've definitely pointed out some of the value in accepting investment, even before it becomes a necessity to keep going. I'll keep what you've said in mind, thanks.

I don't necessarily want to own 100% of my own company, but I want to own at least 51%. I think that Y-Combinator leads to individual ownership that is far less than 51%. Even the founders together will have less than 51%. Am I wrong?

huh? YC usually takes 6% of the company - assuming an equal distribution with three founders at 33% initially, now everyone is at 31.333%, with a combined 94%.

are the lot of you fourteen years old? or just that old mentally? you're sitting around talking about how you will divy up your little hypothetical companies...did you read richie rich comics as a child?

1. get an idea someone gives a shit about. 2. find someone to put money behind your idea. 3. then you can get your rocks off playing god with the stock options. without 1,2...talking about 3 is just mental masturbation

Hi, troll.

oh i'm sorry, do you own this thread?

You don't really have much to lose.

Thanks. But that non-trivial pile of RSUs is really very non-trivial :)

Every year you will be getting RSUs or retention bonuses. At some point you should make the call rite. Im in same position as you.

True that.

You do have to call it quits at some point. But why not wait until it's enough to actually coast on for a while?

Hi, troll

I've been absolutely floored by the quality and quantity of comments and advice from all of you, here and on my blog. I've reworked my plans and expectations a tad, and gained a lot more confidence about some parts that I was shaky on. Thanks, HN!

This is the hacker demographic I will be targeting should I become wealthy enough to finance my own YC-inspired investment firm.

so sad. his whole life has boiled down to fetishisizing work

how about this for a plan - get married and have kids. you'll have a regular sex partner, and when you are sixty, you won't sit around wondering why you are alone

and if you save some money, take a winter off and be a ski bum. one year cruising between whistler, aspen, half the crazy ass monster resorts in the alps...beats the hell out of pissing into the wind in the website game

Hi, troll.

keep swinging. sorry not everyone is in the mutual support echo chamber.

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