Hacker News Reader

Comment by jeffbee | Hacker News Reader

Selling people something they want, but not actually delivering it to them, is different.

Again, I submit myself as an existence proof to the contrary. The FSD package as it exists gets you autonomy on highways already. That alone was enough for me to buy it. The beta looks pretty acceptable to me too, and I look forward to that feature rolling out.

Exactly what am I not getting? This really seems like a strawman kind of thing. You're inventing a product and a market that don't correspond to real cars or consumers, and then arguing about what those consumers "really" wanted or what the car was "supposed" to do, and not what they actually want or what the hardware actually does.

I don't see how that's helpful to anyone other than an investor short on TSLA. The way to prove that this is a garbage product, again, is to make a better one.

what you're not getting is level 5 self driving, that Musk keeps advertising for years.

If you know that what you're paying for is L2 then all good, enjoy your new car :)

The problem people have is the misleading lies, like L5 being right in the corner, I'm pretty sure many fell for it.

You are not getting full self driving.

If you take delivery of this thing and you’re pleased with what it does that’s fine, but it is demonstrably not the thing it’s seller says it is, which in the aggregate consumer protection realm isn’t fine.

The fine print says what it is when you buy. This is a thing in almost all industries when it comes to marketing.

Can you give another example of borderline false advertisiment such as tesla?

This is precisely how the feature is described right above the button that adds it to your configuration in the purchase UI. I really don't think this is unclear at all, and absolutely not the kind of misleading stuff everyone here keeps talking about without citing:

    Full Self-Driving Capability
    
    * Navigate on Autopilot
    * Auto Lane Change
    * Autopark
    * Summon
    * Full Self-Driving Computer
    * Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control
    
    Coming later this year
    * Autosteer on city streets
    
    The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and
    do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these
    features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human
    drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as
    regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As
    these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously
    upgraded through over-the-air software updates.

Quoting your previous message:

> The FSD package as it exists gets you autonomy on highways already

did you say that before you had the chance to read that text?

I don't understand. My use of "autonomy" was perfectly in line with existing convention, and this text describes the product and my understanding of it perfectly. Really, can't you just assume good faith and figure that people like me see value in and want to purchase this product knowing full well exactly what it does? Why must everything be a lie to your ears?

Maybe... you just want something different? Why are you so angry about a product you aren't buying.

I'm not angry. I just find the wording misleading. I thought you did so too, given your sentence. Given the interpretation of many people in this thread (including mine), I think there is plenty evidence that it is indeed misleading. It is nice you were not one of them, given that you seem to be the only one who bought the car.

As for assuming good faith, giving all Elon Musk's actions and statements, it is hard to assume it at this point.

raises hand I'm annoyed that these cars exist on the road. They're a danger to all drivers.

People don't need to "learn" how to operate semi-autonomous vehicles that have insufficient safety features. Tesla's autonomy does not train drivers to be attentive. In accident situations, a driver who's been lulled into complacency has no chance to respond appropriately.

Every other company took a more conservative approach to self-driving. Only Tesla barrels forward, head in the sand, ignoring all standards, like being able to exit the vehicle in an accident without needing to find the latch behind the speaker cover. A random passenger would not know this. Tesla breaks things that were not broken and claims they are innovative solutions, meanwhile wasting public investment money.

In consumer transactions the fine print is superseded by the statements, the "express warranties", made by the seller. That is the law in all fifty American states.

I hate to break this to you, but you've been Musked.

> The FSD package as it exists gets you autonomy on highways already.

This is incorrect. It's a level 2 driver-assist feature no matter what road or surface you're driving on. This means keeping both hands on the wheel and paying full attention to driving 100% of the time.

The SAE levels measure the level of autonomy. Level 2 / driver assist is a form of autonomy.

Also level 1 is driver assistance. Level 2 would be “partial automation”, see http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2013/12/sae-levels-driving...

With level 2 driver assistance, you must always have your hands on the wheel and be in control of the vehicle, paying attention 100% of the time. Autonomous implies that the car is acting without human involvement.

When you think about it, level 5 is the only level that should be described as autonomous. For all we know, level 5 could require strong AI to achieve. My guess is that the gap between levels 4 and 5 is much wider than most of us are assuming.

As I said to a different poster: this is a shameless strawman. Instead of arguing with me about what I actually want or the features of the car I actually purchased, you're inventing a fictitious consumer of a car that isn't actually for sale and trying to tell me why I didn't buy the car I did for the reasons I think I did and/or why it doesn't actually do what I know damn well it does.

All because you apparently can't handle the fact that Tesla's $10k FSD package actually provides value to consumers?

I mean, be real: I almost certainly know more about this vehicle's capabilities than you do, and I assure you that I am more expert on my own purchasing logic.

This is a silly argument because humans are autonomous and cannot drive in all environments safely. Level 5 means matching human performance, so the cars can still get stuck and require a tow, if we reach level 5.

I am using the word autonomous as defined by the SAE levels, which are described as “levels of autonomy”. You are yak shaving and contorting the words to your liking.

Also tesla is level 3, not level 2. It also doesn’t require hands on wheel 100% of the time, although they say it requires this

Reply on news.ycombinator.com