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Comment by alfiedotwtf | Hacker News Reader

> A key event was the passage of the Fair Labor Standards Act in 1938. Rather than restricting night work, the law created the right to “time-and-a-half” overtime pay, effectively ending the campaign to reduce hours. After that, both the number of hours Americans worked each week and the number of weeks they worked each year began to rise.

Das Kapital by Karl Marx goes into great detail with UK's Factory Acts of the 1800s. It's mind boggling that before those laws, children as young as 8 were working 16 hours a day in British factories.

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Keep in mind that the world operated on subsistence farming before 1800, and children were put to work as soon as they could walk. Families had no choice.

Analysis of the bones of pre-1800 American colonists show extreme overwork. They died young.

Analysis of the bones of pre-Columbian Central American natives also showed extreme labor done by children.

What eventually saved children from this was the rising productivity that came from industrialization.

This is somewhat misleading : if you use human height as a proxy for wellbeing, you will see that Victorian Britain was a particularly low point.

So is studying early American colonists : they found themselves in particularly hostile territory, which they had no know-how about, with only unreliable support by ship.

The height problem was a result of the population outpacing the food supply.

The height of Americans started skyrocketing in 1800, and this continued right up to WW2, when it leveled off. As historian Eugene Weber observed, America in 1800 was the first time in human history when enough food was produced to end the constant threat of famine.

P.S. The pre-Columbian North American Indians didn't have it much better. Their bones show repeated episodes of famine.

Isn’t height something that’s mainly inherited? I’m guessing height shot up because of immigration rather than diet

There's a genetic component, surely. But if you look at historical height statistics, adequate food is clearly a dominant factor.

This is true of every country that transitioned to an adequate food supply.

Thanks, TIL

Subsistence farming is a lot of work, no doubt. But the work is very uneven. Some parts of the year, there's a lot of work. Whole winter, not so much.

Meanwhile factories run all the time.

In the winter people (at least the women) spent most of their time spinning and weaving. I expect the men were likely taking care of the animals, doing repairs and maintenance, and endless hand work we have machines to do for us today.

There's a reason parents sent their kids to those factories. They desperately needed the money. I doubt they hated their kids.

There's plenty of historical records of farmers being forced to go into factories and hating it, to the point of risking their life doing strikes and fighting strike-breakers.

Industries desperately needed cheap labor and the mechanization of farming helped by generating widespread unemployment.

> Keep in mind that the world operated on subsistence farming before 1800

Yep. But I think a big difference here is between subsistence farming and serfdom on the farm you lived in vs sending kids into the wool factories with unbreathable air. The testimonies from factory inspectors is mind blowing.

> What eventually saved children from this was the rising productivity that came from industrialization.

Eventually, thankfully yes. But the Factory Act also mandated maximum hours children could work per day, making employing children expensive as they needed double the number of children to work in shifts, which eventuated to banning shift work for children altogether (because they weren't allowed to work past certain hours making shift teams useless).

My point is the reduction of child labor hours was impossible before industrialization improved productivity.

It's not until around 1800 that the population ceased to be constrained by the ability to produce food. We live in a time of amazing abundance, they did not.

> My point is the reduction of child labor hours was impossible before industrialization improved productivity.

Farmers worked less hours and with much less intensity than industrial workers.

The incredible drop in life expectancy of farmers turning industrial workers says everything.

I farm in the summer and write code in the winter, or during the heat of the day in the summer.

Its really a great lifestyle. I highly recommend it.

You farm these days with all the benefits of technology and mass production. You are not doing subsistence farming. Making your own soap, making your own clothes, making your own tools, chopping wood for the stove, making your own barn, etc.

My family in the Philippines pretty much farm (rice and vegetables) for only a few months of the year, and the only technology they use is a few diesel water pumps. To be honest, they’re the happiest people I know

Do they make their own cloth? Weave their own clothes? Make their own soap? Make their own shoes? Saw their own planks for the buildings? Make their own nails? Eat food from elsewhere than their farm? Make their own pencils? Paper? Glass? Where did their meat come from? Chop wood and tend the woodburning stove all day?

(Thomas Jefferson's Monticello estate had a "nailery" where the nails were made that were needed for the buildings.)

In any case, powered irrigation is a huge deal. Just imagine the backbreaking work hauling the water by hand.

> Do they make their own...

Not quiet, as they're not subsistence farming but surplus farming. Though, it's not surplus as in big business, just enough to make it through to the next the year's crop. I don't even think they have bank accounts etc.

As I remarked, the surge in population without the food says everything.

It's interesting to put some perspective on the whole climate change. It's less surprising that humanity went ballistic when physics and engineering freed them from so much.

> What eventually saved children from this was the rising productivity that came from industrialization.

Not at all. On the contrary, the life expectancy dropped to an all-time low for the underclass during the industrial revolution.

> subsistence farming before 1800, and children were put to work

It's been very common for children to start doing house work a young age and then learn a trade from their parents. And it's still the norm in many poor rural countries today.

It's very unfair to describe it as dangerous or abusive and compare it to the industrial revolution life.

England saw a surge in population at the time, outpacing the food supply. That is the explanation for the drop in life expectancy. People did not migrate from the farms to the factories in order to lower their standard of living.

There were plenty of examples in Factory Act testimonies by inspectors saying air quality for children in factories was unbearable leading to lung problems later on in life (average death being under 40)

People wouldn't have sent their kids to the factories if life was better on the farm. I doubt that many people at the time were aware of the long term effects of smoke inhalation.

My understanding is that the UK experienced a population boom due to increased farming productivity due to potatoes. The resulting population boom meant that there where more farmers than farms, so they had to go somewhere, and the only option was cities.

Most blue collar guys I ever worked with would leap at the chance for overtime or holiday double pay. It's the only way they'd really make some money.

The way that salaried employees have kept a very similar mindset even though they don't make an additional dime by working more perplexes me. Although it's sometimes worth it; one good session from 10pm to 4am can sometimes accomplish more real work than three weeks of 9-5 business days.

The key to salaried employment is establishing a monopoly you can exploit; 'corporate entrepreneurship'.

You work very hard at something in a company and become the expert / unreplacable. Then, spend some time automating those tasks. After doing that for a few years, you can then spend much, much less time 'working' since your work is being done for your by machines you manage.

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