Comment by rasputnik6502 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rasputnik6502 | Hacker News Reader

Nice story. It takes some experience and self knowledge to identify what is a joke and what is bullying. Most men just want to be liked, seem witty and funny, and sometimes are just going a too far to show off. But there's a group of people who will belittle you to humiliate and assert their higher position in the hierarchy and this is a part of an ugly campaign to destroy any competition (which also means you're perceived as dangerous). And misunderstandings happen, with victims on both sides, but it's valuable to know some people have hidden motives.

I have a different issue, I think it has something to do with male/female relations at workplace. I'm the lead dev in a mixed team. And one of devs, who happens to be a girl, has some special attitude. Whenever I report a problem with the code, or a bug, she jumps in and exclaims it's not her code or she didn't do anything related to the problem, basically not her fault [without any suggestions that it might be her fault]. Sometimes tries to blame someone else. If anything points to her responsibility, she downplays it (oh you know I don't even remember). All while I try to avoid blaming or pointing code ownership. But the most difficult part was when I pointed out some parts were missing in her work and function wasn't completed - then I was accused of being mean and attacking her without any reason. Never had such situation, I am rather a considerate, polite person, try to remain professional and never touch personal side - but this just perplexed me. With a male dev it would not be possible, but when a woman accuses a man of harassment or bullying at work the man is considered guilty by default. I perceived this as a threat - never ever criticize my work or you will be accused. Unfortunately she's not doing that great job sometimes and so cooperation gets quite difficult - and I'm afraid it's not going to be good in future.

It's important to keep things fact based and be very specific about the behavior you want corrected. I would get things in writing as well so that you have email to back you up in case things go south.

The situation you are describing is, unfortunately, not a male/female issue. It is a pattern for a certain type of low performer.

p.s., You might think about why you use the word "girl" as opposed to "woman" BTW. That's a touchy point for a lot of women, as it diminishes their seniority. It may or may not be relevant to the conversations you describe. This is not intended as criticism; I know nothing of the situation beyond what you wrote.

Probably because of age difference, she's much younger than me. And also because of the way she behaves - i perceive it as a bit childish/immature

But yes, i'm afraid i might be wrongly accused and would have a hard time defending myself, and this also affects the rest of the team (as i dont think they're blind - they see and feel what's going on - but on the other side i'd rather not talk about this with anyone else from the team so it's ok we dont mention that)

PS (edit): "low performer" - this is probably the key, i have worked with some developers doing a poor job but it's first time when i'm served some manipulative crap to prevent any honest discussion of the work done.

I must highlight a false assumption in your story:

> With a male dev it would not be possible, but when a woman accuses a man of harassment or bullying at work the man is considered guilty by default

I guarantee you that it is absolutely possible for men to be emotionally manipulative to cover for professional lapses in an employment setting. Typically they go for "dude, we're bros, why can't you let it slide" rather than "dude, why are you being mean to me", but at the end of the day, the reaction is exactly the same. You report the claim of harassment or bullying to HR, you recuse yourself from its handling, and you openly participate in the process and present your case that you believe manipulation is occurring.

So, since I've seen male devs do this and I've seen male devs get fired for doing this, how would I handle this if she were a he, behaving in this same manner?

I would, presumably, by the guidance of my HR department and manager training, have already been collecting written proof of failure to deliver, with independent assessments by others affirming the failure to deliver. I would have sought review and affirmation that the instructions were clear and that they agreed and affirmed to those instructions, and that they then failed to deliver what was promised.

So, then, you need to: Compile concrete (written, recorded, anything but verbal-off-the-record) evidence demonstrating failure to perform to the stated expectations. Have the expectations vetted to ensure that they're reasonable and appropriate. Have the work output vetted to ensure that it's deficient and lacking. Validate the evidence you've collected as sufficient with your manager and HR team. Then, fire them.

ps. It seems like you're assuming that a male dev would not claim harassment by a male manager, but that's actually a much more effective inflammatory technique for someone who's trying to manipulate their way out of failure to deliver, especially in conservative regions where being accused of being gay can be a career-ending experience. I encourage you to reconsider this potential blind spot in your expectations before someone takes advantage of it someday.

Ok, it really doesnt matter if it's a woman or a man, and some parts of your advice make sense. But i'm not yet into firing anyone, it's just first hints of potential problems. You know, nothing really happened, some technical discussion is being derailed and moved into personal ground, where they can call my behavior wrong or accuse of being mean. Ok, i got the message, and we're good for now, but next time i will avoid any discussion with them knowing that we will go again into blaming. And so such person gets special treatment from the team.

It's human nature to use whatever leverage you have, this kind of thing is going to happen. In my experience one of the best balancing forces for this overshoot is to ensure that you're putting as much effort into developing diverse leads as you are hiring diverse ICs.

I mean... this sounds like the exact job that "git blame" is made for. Does your company not have some kind of version control?

Git blame is not for blaming others

I don't get how the dev's gender factors into the story. Everyone of us have dealt with colleagues that don't handle criticism well and/or are poor performers. That your conclusion is that it is because she is a woman (don't call them girls) may indicate that you have some learning to do.

I don't think GP concludes that her performance is due to her gender, but that the retaliatory threat he perceived was distinctly so.

Are you sure your conclusions aren't because of his gender?

Calling a woman a girl, while calling a man a man, might be why you find it hard to form positive rapport with her.

i dont think this is relevant, she's not the only female developer in the team and i have rather a positive rapport with everyne else. It's just how the normal work situation becomes twisted into personal, full of self-defense and finger pointing, with potential to develop into crazy if i dont back off.

PS after giving this one more thought, i dont think i ever patronized someone because of gender, but must honestly admit i assume the mentor tone when dealing with unexperienced/less skilled developers. Shoot me, but it's not about maintaining my feeling of superiority, i know my skills. It's about building a rapport - if the other person reacts properly then there's hope for cooperation, if it's just games then sorry, i dont want that.

> i dont think i ever patronized someone because of gender

Do you habitually call any of the men you work with "boy"?

i can call my coworkers boys and girls here, it's not relevant - as long as i dont do that when interacting with them. If you feel offended by use of 'girl' or 'boy' in such context then it's your choice, i cant do much about it.

You can call them that, sure. Do you habitually call any specific man "boy"? Because, whether or not you intend it to be, many women find this specific pattern that you're exhibiting to be patronizing.

Well, if i called my coworker 'girl' in a conversation with her then it would be patronizing and belittling. But when i use 'girl' to refer to a female coworker in an internet discussion, without identifying any person, then how this can be patronizing and to whom?

Maybe we should stop using the word 'girlfriend' and say 'womanfriend' instead?

And btw what about 'girls in tech' organization? Is it patronizing?

If nothing else, it highlights, an (at least) unconscious bias on your part. Language matters, and you can work on it.

Boyfriend/girlfriend labels are equitable, and that relationship implies a familiarity for which a diminutive is typical and appropriate. Notably, this is not a professional relationship.

Girls in tech is about recruiting and supporting female children interested in tech. That's okay, because they're children. Your coworker is an adult, and it behooves you to treat them like one. For example, if she isn't acting like an adult, that's an issue to address in a professional manner, rather than call her a girl behind her back.

[quote]Girls in tech is about recruiting and supporting female children interested in tech. That's okay, because they're children[/quote]

Ok i can swallow being accused of thoughtcrime (at least!), and will punish myself for it, but are you implying 'Girls in tech' is engaging in illegal employment of minors? That's a bold statement.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com