Hatetris – Tetris which always gives you the worst piece
qntm.org
qntm.org
> Yes, you will get a lot of S pieces. But it doesn't give you solely S pieces - if that were the case, then it would be possible to make lines forever, which is much too easy.
The same people also proved (earlier) that with 3-ominos its a win for the player.
Incidentally, if you’re into cool maths that isn’t part of any major research line, Eureka is a great read.
The proof that Tris is a win for the player was published in Eureka 51 (1991) by Adam Chalcraft. Richard and Adam definitely know one another and I would be unsurprised to learn that they talked to one another about this stuff, but the actual writeups in Eureka were by different people.
(Quite possibly a substantial amount of the thinking was done collectively at meetings of the "Puzzles and Games Ring", a sort of sub-organization of the Archimedeans (the student mathematical society at the University of Cambridge, which publishes Eureka).
Anyway, this game of (ha)Tetris is a lot like a lot of people's lives, just roadblock after roadblock. While the normal version where you start from zero on level one is probably an upper middle class life. And Id say that the majority of people in the world start on level 6 with the board halfway filled with a bunch of gaps and the pieces move at a speed that is barely controllable (im thinking of the classic gameboy version when I imagine these boards)
Hatetris is cool. I couldn't get one line and I consider myself a damn good tetris player. It kept giving me S pieces and threw a Z in there and then an l
They should make a multiplayer version where you could pass the pieces you don't like to other players!
> Tetris 99 is a multiplayer puzzle game in which 99 players play against each other at the same time, with the aim to be the last player remaining. [...] As with normal Tetris rules, players have the option to store a tetromino piece to swap out at any time. By clearing multiple lines or performing continuous line clears in a row, players can send "garbage" to other players, which will appear on their board unless they can quickly clear lines in response. More garbage can be sent by completing combination moves in succession of making a "tetris" (matching 4 lines at once) or performing a "T-spin" (squeezing the T-shaped tetromino into a position it would otherwise not fall into by rapidly rotating it).
And here's my rebuttal to it - https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2016/01/for-some-people-life-is-har...
- You have to learn to relentlessly blame yourself for the mistakes you make, but also to accept that you can't change everything, and sometimes you WILL lose to random luck, no matter what you do.
- Actually understanding probability goes a long way.
- Regrettably, a large chunk of the game depends on your initial hand.
Although with poker you have the house that always wins...
No, wait.
But actually true.
This argument reminds me of people who try to deny things like white privilege by describing how hard they had to work to get where they are now. Yeah, well, for a lot of people working hard (or not) isn't the only important factor that's determining their odds of success. That's the privilege...
Only experienced by white people of course which also by your implication are incapable of experiencing
>Yeah, well, for a lot of people working hard (or not) isn't the only important factor that's determining their odds of success
It's great you lead a privileged enough life you've never had to interact with poor struggling white people before.
For example a black child born into extreme or moderate wealth is undoubtedly more privileged than a white child that is orphaned at a young age.
Being rich, famous or well-connected, that is 'real' privilege and should rightfully be called out. Not having to fear encounters with the police, not being discriminated in regards to employment or not being harassed on the streets are fundamental rights. Even if you don't care about being sensitive, telling people that they are privileged for having these is just so obviously counterproductive.
I don’t think it’s meant to be a serious description of the situation
People using it to refer people that aren't acting like assholes should indeed drop that wording. It does nothing but antagonize people.
But I wouldn’t use the words unfair advantage. Most of us didn’t cheat or do anything immoral to be born in this position, and trying to make our lives worse won’t help anyone else. The point isn’t to try to make us feel bad (not how I interpret it at least), but that we try to remember that we are very lucky people being born into this position, and that the overwhelming majority were less lucky than we are.
Moral of the story - S pieces are the worst possible pieces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWTFG3J1CP8
Compete History of the Soviet Union, arranged to the music of Tetris. Pigwiththefaceofaboy.
I realized half-way through that I had to get into a totally-different mindset than normal Tetris.
Normally, if the game gives you the wrong piece, you can put it where it will do the least damage for your current plans, and wait patiently for a better piece.
What you have to realize in this one is that the game will never give you the piece you want, if it has any option of giving you a worse one.
And so you have to play this like a Chess puzzle: how can I checkmate the game so that any piece it gives me will finish a line? How can I force it to either give me a piece that can fit in a 1x1 hole in the middle, or just give me 2x2 squares and I can complete the row with those.
It's quite different and fun when you think like that.
Hatetris then gives me the same piece again. I think again: "I'll just put this out of the way for now"
I found it impossible to overcome this habit before running out of space.
There's some "tetris is life" wisdom in there.
I got like 5 lines I think.
ஜɧࢩݥҬuళࡑ௨ټถݹƓقฐࡑ௧ʝÐݶԨքଈݪݫට༨ஈடΟໃʮzටఴঅ୦Ѯໃa௨৫ІܝԥചWђߝsลஈமϺບઞzජТஈߝકІݜҫඨƖݷಏقКחಎؾɑݛkЂϼ०తನլݢသ૫ØঐಳUಮщ౻ऊԀঙങఢVםષථϭŋɼԻహҵ
Often they end up being the same, but not always. Tile the S's in a row and it will give you a cube because the s would let you complete the line.
And we often kinda say, ‘hey that’s life’.
Rubik’s cube solver robot: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZBP0n6yeQo
You have to try to sacrifice some lines in order to get guaranteed lines.
Absolutely love the playback feature.
I suspect that there's some pathological behavior in the game you can exploit to possibly get a line or more while giving up a line (not that I searched and identified one, I think I just got lucky on my second game because I don't play tetris much so didn't have much of a strategy to unlearn). It would be interesting if there a few of these behaviors that lead into each other, which could lead to a stable state of infinite lines.
Not being random means there might be more to exploit.
Here's a game with 7:
ԫقຽࡨதقลƻஸปໃɡЩටʈम౻ටիঅஶΟໃࡦѻ೯ܘݪ௨൜ІݚɪؾÐݪߜගІסञඉȣݣ౫ඞУݸԫؼПݒ౺sܪݚஶsԀŦਛfΔݹटɈເљࠑಜÐݶɺටळ൪ԪؾЂɚலڌෆࡨࢸదQॡభඝଘݒಈలНމࢲඖИܭޜϻϨॷభĐ
31: ௨ഖƌݯߜࠏІWƑsໃa௨೯ܘݷಳජଈیԪؼʥݺԥඞܘݲࠐڄໂঅமةໃݹ௧ړІٽ௨൞ໃZ௨ಘІܥࠐΣІZߜටȜখذජНݹߛeʛݹߤปເѧ௩ԚໂՉࢸටuа௨સȣݷłقෆঅਏeܘԔצقషݸɢڠຜঀಧҸມѧஐට༪൩ԊಅഫܡथsถԡԦԚໃɥஸقࡈɕɠɈไݸצقషݰਵϺФঅஓػݐɓԞуຯɕझࡈ๐ݞझࢶІݞमปദஈƉؿଭݪஸҩЂ൸ԛمϦGƁҨVھԥචЅշࡂ෮लݷƘණ໘ࠅƘಧНקࢻҨฆӘದԋϝପࠑ੧ͳݲடփරݞਵΚϼɢԒԺٳѦԤࠌξGಘسਯܥஶҋϮτथlϼʔ
Agree it is like chess.
Second time I got a 4 line game in. I appreciate the total change in thinking required to do well in the game.
[0] http://twinbeard.com/140_futilitris [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab62aohgpKI
"Line piece. Line piece. Line piece. LINE PIECE!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alw5hs0chj0
(also never knew about that video, but it's great indeed)
:shakes head:
The method by which the AI selects the worst possible piece is extremely simple to describe (test all possible locations of all possible pieces, see which of the pieces' best-case scenarios is the worst, then spawn that worst piece), but quite time-consuming to execute, so please forgive me if your browser chugs a little after locking each piece. If you can figure out a way to accelerate the algorithm without diminishing its hate-filled efficiency, do let me know. The algorithm for "weighing" possibilities is to simply maximise the highest point of the "tower" after the piece is landed.
The author says that the algorithm couldn't be changed without invalidating the replays so I'm guessing that means it's a deterministic algorithm. Judging from the comment about "weighing" possibilities (which I interpret as evaluating boards) I'm further guessing it's an ad-hoc implementation of Best-First Search. In that case, I suspect its performance could be improved quite a bit by replacing it with a Monte Carlo search. But as the author fears, that would definitely invalidate replays (you'd get slightly different results each time).
Another optimisation is some kind of prunning heuristic- some kind of intuition about which pieces P don't need to be considered once a certain piece S has been rejected as the worst possible, because those other pieces P can only yield better boards then S (better for the player). No idea what that heuristic would look like, but the result would stay the same so the replays could still run as before.
You'd lay down some rules such as "the pieces must theoretically have an even distribution over some period" and "piece sequences must come probabilistically and not hard coded."
You could then objectively test the randomizer by pitting a standardized bot against it.
If Tetris has taught me anything it's that errors pile up and accomplishments disappear.
Trust me, I'm a doctor.
It's just an analogy. The main point is that most pieces are built by people, they don't just fall off the sky.
It really is all luck.
We talk past each other when we do not specify the domain of the topic under discussion. At the highest abstraction it’s luck. We are lucky to have born as humans and not somewhere at the bottom of the food chain.
It’s impossible to have a productive conversation with these analogies and subjectivity of which abstraction layer we are talking about.
What this thread is about - “Nothing is in our control and everything is luck”. That’s a dull and uninteresting observation IMO. Also really uninspiring take on life and pursuit of excellence.
You also left out the biggest and the most important luck factor - Physical attractiveness. There are several studies in the field of psychology to mundane daily anecdotal evidence of how attractive people have a lottery ticket. I don't see this as a negative thing - genetic diversity is literally how human's evolve and natural selection works.
...and yes, in my spare time (at times), I play multiple tetris games, but since I haven't found one that runs multiple games, I have to run many different windows--so I don't do it very often.
Anybody know of a Tetris game that allows you to add multiple games at the same time? That'd be awesome!
Method: If you lay the "s" pieces on their tip, next to each other horizontally, starting from one side, when you get to having a gap of two left on the other side, it changes to giving you line pieces. You can then lay these line pieces horizontally on top of the s pieces to create a full "wall" eight blocks wide all the way to the top. Then start filling in the two-wide column to start making lines. Best this seems to give is five.
Has anyone made it to six? Is it possible?
Edit: after reading more of the comments here, I see the high score is 31!!! Wow, didn't expect that -- it is neat to watch it through:
௨ഖƌݯߜࠏІWƑsໃa௨೯ܘݷಳජଈیԪؼʥݺԥඞܘݲࠐڄໂঅமةໃݹ௧ړІٽ௨൞ໃZ௨ಘІܥࠐΣІZߜටȜখذජНݹߛeʛݹߤปເѧ௩ԚໂՉࢸටuа௨સȣݷłقෆঅਏeܘԔצقషݸɢڠຜঀಧҸມѧஐට༪൩ԊಅഫܡथsถԡԦԚໃɥஸقࡈɕɠɈไݸצقషݰਵϺФঅஓػݐɓԞуຯɕझࡈ๐ݞझࢶІݞमปദஈƉؿଭݪஸҩЂ൸ԛمϦGƁҨVھԥචЅշࡂ෮लݷƘණ໘ࠅƘಧНקࢻҨฆӘದԋϝପࠑ੧ͳݲடփරݞਵΚϼɢԒԺٳѦԤࠌξGಘسਯܥஶҋϮτथlϼʔ
హइໃџИටଛڭ௧پಭݪбඩಸݞహࡄȤເ௨ඤʈঅஜѸໃѣۑචʈஆಏ੬ܯཧ૭ටໞݹਓsະࠇஶƣฅяడقແߛ௨ೱٱݸಳ൞ະࢭ௨ඞНݷహइЖݪ௧چະঀ౻ටПݸԫ૫ଠݹ౻ಅໄ൰ళҸཟࢭলฃฅॾవඩಸܭСࡏVپƏοSྌਔ
ฆࡄາໃݣඪජݹಏ૫ຊरಗق༨൪صඨʐএЩටลڝ௨෨ଈݚЩචƙɕࢳ৩ฅڥࢲටະࠇ௨ٴໃɛ௨ٴແߛ௨൞ໃק௧ڠງƷஶكɑݹத෮ແࢭ௧ຂຽஈਢචƚܥ௨ۼถݷಏقܧɒԩঘญகϡࡆϿߟƑؾϿॻ౦ʜວॿޠظܪܦ౻ॸࠋ
Ɣঔໃݹஐټຯپ௧এІK௨ಗາɢƏࡈາɕƔןІJ௧ڠຽঅসඞݕݹமΒІυݸටຯວ௨ටȣƫ௨ඖІܥ௨ౚഫݹđҨSঅரեໃƫ௨൝ධݛࠑಧషҪࡐԊໂƷஓҸգǶߜඖڪڤ௨డลГଚ౾κʥࢳॴ༱uझٯฦܥƑȺیюಳϾຯஞ௧ڈ๓ଖಱலะCஐشڛઝѻਯϝລ
I've seen a bunch of those "adversarial tetris" variants, and they all operate under the assumption that any of the seven pieces can appear at any time, and with only one preview.
Modern Tetris has 3 previews + hold, and pieces are drawn randomly "from a bag", without replacement (more formally, if P[i] is the sequence of pieces, each aligned subsequence of 7 pieces must be a permutation of the tetrominos).
This would be more interesting to make/play. Note that under such rules there exists a strategy that allows infinite play if the well is at least 17 tiles high.
I spent more time that's reasonable on Tetris, but mostly on modern variants. The 'classic' tetris most people are used to feels kind of weird to me.
An interesting note about the versions that use the piece bag strategy is that the game can be solved. It's possible to play until the game speeds up to the point where you can no longer get a piece to the edge of the screen before it hits the bottom. https://tetris.wiki/Playing_forever
Fun fact, Tetris is NP-Hard. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mathematicians-pr...
Still, Nintendo's Tetris implementations on NES and Game Boy are both early and among the best-known versions, neither of which use a piece bag.
NES Tetris is both a pretty good implementation to be enjoyable, and it's unchanging in a way that makes it ideal for competition. It is gaining new players to this day.
Not only new players, but also new techniques (for fast side movement):
After 1. DAS (holding the d-pad) and 2. Hypertapping (rapidly tapping the d-pad with one finger) now there is 3. Rolling (rapidly tapping the controller with multiple fingers in succession). The geekiness is strong with these.
In marathon mode, the only garbage blocks are the mess you create for yourself. These arise naturally from situations such as (1) receiving the wrong piece at the wrong time and (2) failing to maneuver a piece correctly before it locks. It is good for these situations to arise naturally during the course of the game.
If I was in charge of Tetris, I would retain Hold, EasySpin, and piece previews in PvP games where they make sense, but I'd disable them in marathon mode.
Replay: ௨ഖƌݯߜࠏІWƑsໃa௨೯ܘݷಳජଈیԪؼʥݺԥඞܘݲࠐڄໂঅமةໃݹ௧ړІٽ௨൞ໃZ௨ಘІܥࠐΣІZߜටȜখذජНݹߛeʛݹߤปເѧ௩ԚໂՉࢸටuа௨સȣݷłقෆঅਏeܘԔצقషݸɢڠຜঀಧҸມѧஐට༪൩ԊಅഫܡथsถԡԦԚໃɥஸقࡈɕɠɈไݸצقషݰਵϺФঅஓػݐɓԞуຯɕझࡈ๐ݞझࢶІݞमปദஈƉؿଭݪஸҩЂ൸ԛمϦGƁҨVھԥචЅշࡂ෮लݷƘණ໘ࠅƘಧНקࢻҨฆӘದԋϝପࠑ੧ͳݲடփරݞਵΚϼɢԒԺٳѦԤࠌξGಘسਯܥஶҋϮτथlϼʔ
https://itty.bitty.site/#Incredible_Hatetris_Replay/?XQAAAAJ...
Also, it's amazing, definitely give it a watch!
௨ഖƌݯߜࠏІWƑsໃa௨೯ܘݷಳජଈیԪؼʥݺԥඞܘݲࠐڄໂঅமةໃݹ௧ړІٽ௨൞ໃZ௨ಘІܥࠐΣІZߜටȜখذජНݹߛeʛݹߤปເѧ௩ԚໂՉࢸටuа௨સȣݷłقෆঅਏeܘԔצقషݸɢڠຜঀಧҸມѧஐට༪൩ԊಅഫܡथsถԡԦԚໃɥஸقࡈɕɠɈไݸצقషݰਵϺФঅஓػݐɓԞуຯɕझࡈ๐ݞझࢶІݞमปദஈƉؿଭݪஸҩЂ൸ԛمϦGƁҨVھԥචЅշࡂ෮लݷƘණ໘ࠅƘಧНקࢻҨฆӘದԋϝପࠑ੧ͳݲடփරݞਵΚϼɢԒԺٳѦԤࠌξGಘسਯܥஶҋϮτथlϼʔ
1. https://www.nosuchthingasafish.com/
My god, it looks so infuriating... and not in the 'puzzle is hard' kind of way, but legitimately awful gameplay.
Quick rundown of tetris history.
https://smpl.productions/high-rise/
I don't think the creators of it quite anticipated how effective the center-merge strategy could be at keeping the board clear, at least based on their surprised Twitter reactions to users (including myself) achieving scores into the low 7 figures.
But given that the game has no timer or really anything that explicitly escalates the difficulty over time, once you figure out how to maintain steady state, you can theoretically play indefinitely (though it does very occasionally crash).
This has raised an interesting question for me about what it would look like to have a version of High Rise with an adversarial bot choosing your pieces. Perhaps the bot's "meanness" of selection could escalate as you get into higher scores, with some kind of checkpoint system to start the game at certain milestones/hardnesses once you've proven you can consistently achieve them through ordinary play.
Otherwise, the story and related stories are spread across the SCP database.
As with most fiction written online, it could probably use an editor. But it's as good as a lot of more conventionally published scifi AND it's covering topics that I haven't been able to find other authors interested in covering.
"line piece, Line Piece, LIINE PIEECE!"
Though I remember at least getting a few lines in Bastet. Hateris seemed to be a lot more difficult (as the article states should be the case).
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.gemugami.b...
The pieces aren’t on a grid either - makes playing it very frustrating.
This game is just Tetris with physics. It's very funny to give to people used to ordinary Tetris, though, because the controls are the same.
Overall I just wasn't impressed. It reminds me of the level of tetris you'd reach after beating all the easier levels only to find that you got to the level that the game creators decided nobody could ever win because they didn't write an ending sequence.
The high score of hatetris seems to be 31 lines, but it seems that it may be taking advantage of the algorithm being myopically giving you the worst piece 1 step ahead, and being deterministic. I wonder if the algorithm has some randomness (among multiple horrible pieces) and multi-step look ahead, how would that affect the high score.
Has anyone done research on tetris's worst case bounds?
If anyone figures out how to fix HN's CSS so that it doesn't do this anymore, without breaking anything else, we will find some way to glorify you. One helpful user seemed to come close, but ended up having better things to do. Others have come close, but the changes broke something else. It may not be that hard, but my body rejects learning enough CSS to find out.
(Also, yes, HN's HTML and CSS and general layout, and many other visible things about the site, are old-fashioned and weird and perhaps even trollish when you look at them a certain way and Mercury is in Leo; but anything one might say about that was probably already a cliché 10 years ago, so it would be good not to go there if you'd be so kind. It is what it is.)
.comment { font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 9pt; word-break: break-word; }
I suspect this is true. Also a Lisp interpreter, but Forth only for some.
Ooc is there a resource that catalogues the different interesting variants of Tetris?
replay of last game: ϥقາɜ௨ഗƊݸƔقࠄחƔطЛپƐටҾɕடٯໃKƐ൳WখƐࡆЂɚஜقໃঅமق༱ݚ௧ڠଭƏjට๐ߟԥකݕݶԪقוݶԪضΚࡨذකଛЩɢڟ۶Щౘڈȥݹ୷ҸຽथѺٯసƩ౫ೲบयஶѮໄэƔشΛюԪغҾɡد੯૨һɆٴПҼౚĐ
As it relates to real Tetris, it's usually the case that the same piece given multiple times in a row does in fact cause the most problems (at least for me).
What is the algorithm in normal Tetris for delivering pieces? Is it completely random, or is there a bit of "frustration" added to the piece distribution?
replay of last game: హࢯජݹ௨ชഫݪݻටի໒௩ѻІӻѻඡІܡமʟІלԥටМܭޠقฅɚࢴටໃɟ௨౾ȣυԥඤІݳ౻బໃݹഭࡄໃלஐ3
If you're used to the current versions, going back in time is crazy hard! No hold pieces, a single preview, the pieces lock-in as soon as they touch, and the randomness is truly random. I was astounded by how hard these small changes make the game. I had totally forgotten!
ИටໃݎஐقไҮԩঘໃݹݫඖϾח௨ࡄໃτઊටณɕ௨ഖVݹୠΟไଌ௨ȷКڍமƣະߛ௨ڄलܤɶѺഉZ௨කܘŧۑഠܗђ௧૫ง๐௬ࡄଘݪjധȣӶஐටםܥಈడƇђحڌࠋ
Could maybe combine the two to get 6.
But the current highscore seems to be 31: https://qntm.org/hatetris#sec0
Except it did not work well for me at all on mobile. The playing field and the buttons were really tiny (half the size of my finger) and missing them ever so slightly caused the board to zoom in and ignore my next press.
Pull request: https://github.com/qntm/hatetris/pull/51#issue-632962518
In fact I'm not sure I got a Z all game, though it seems other commenters did.
Did you keep the replay code of your game?
Then I played it. Kudos to the creator. I really do hate it.
I just made Lovetris : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27083666
1 line scored
maybe "obviously irritating tetris" would be more appropriate name?
If you can't figure out how to score a row from only S's (it's not intuitive, because it's not what you'd do in normal Tetris if you got several S's), then it will keep giving you those.
Once you work out how to make a line with S's, it will give you something else before you complete it.
ञƅҁݹடقࠃݶԤsฅڍ௧Ҕບݷవගༀݹ௩Ԟ໐ڻԒپܘݶƐජඤझ௨ಀඦݷహࡄลॾޛಀࠃݪڲض৩ஈরࡄชݺƘ൵Іމஐඤɱןݹ੬ݕݸ