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Comment by tejohnso | Hacker News Reader

> ...made it difficult for them to follow the same paths as commodified drugs like cacao or tobacco.

This is the first I've heard of cacao being referred to as a drug. Is this the same cacao used in the production of chocolate?

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The word "drug" has no successful definition. If you say "a substance that alters how your brain works", then even water is a drug. Sugar and coffee are almost surely drugs under any non-laundry-list definition you can come up with. Cacao is most certainly a drug ;)

I have some ceremonial cacao. A ceremonial portion of 45 grams (made into hot chocolate) produces a light euphoric glow for a while. It's in the same ballpark as tea, peppermint, etc. - a very tame, mild, natural "high". Similar to brewing a few fresh cannabis leaves. Nice but barely noticeable.

> It's in the same ballpark as tea, peppermint, etc.

I don't understand - are you saying you also get a euphoric glow from tea and peppermint leaves?

People are known to “get high”off of non drug substances through suggestion (their mates either actually getting high or pretending to get high cause subject “to get high” by proxy.

Are you not feeling anything from green tea?

Jasmine Pearls are especially strong in that sense.

Not the person you're replying to, but I can't say I've ever felt anything noticeably different after drinking tea. The hot water is nice and the tea tastes & smells good, but for me, nothing more.

I like tea, but I only drink it occasionally.

Caffeinated teas definitely.

Caffeine is a mild stimulant of course, but it's not a feeling I'd personally equate with euphoria.

Sure. The strangest euphoric glow I've gotten from salmon.

Yes.

And yeah it is. It contains similar alkaloids to coffee beans. Moderns process often see these removed.

Pharmacopeia is strange.

I know it's used as part of some rituals, usually before taking mushrooms. You take a shot in the nose. But I don't know what are the effects. Some people just cry or connect with emotions, but this is anecdotal.

From what I have read Cacao is a MAO inhibitor. Reports from users mixing it with mushrooms state that it increases the effect [1][2]

[1] https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4838011 [2] https://psychedelictimes.com/potentiating-psilocybin-entoura...

Chocolate contains theobromine and caffeine. The Theobromine is why you shouldn't feed dogs chocolate.

Cacao contains Anandamide - a cannabinoid that gives euphoric effect.

How much cacao do you need to ingest to reach the necessary dosage?

Yes, it contains theobromine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobromine

In Theravada Buddhism, you can eat (dark) chocolate while fasting because it's historically categorized as medicine.

Is this a historically Buddhist categorization or is it based on some other reasoning? I’m surprised there is a history of chocolate in Buddhism.

That's a good question. I assumed that cocoa existed in Ancient India, but it's native to Mexico, so that doesn't really make sense. The best explanation I could find just from Googling it seems to be that this is actually an interpretation specific to Thailand of a more general rule:

FAQ 9: "In Thailand, it has been observed that Thai Buddhist monks are allowed to drink tea, cocoa, coffee (but without milk) after midday. But in some other Buddhist countries like Burma, monks are not allowed to do this. Is this part of the Vinaya rules or is this just tradition, custom, or local practice? If it is in the Vinaya, how do you explain the differences in interpretation?"

A: The fourth of the Recollections of the Bhikkhu's Requisites is: "Properly considering medicinal requisites for curing the sick, I use them: simply to ward off any pains of illness that have arisen, and for the maximum freedom from disease." (OP p.47)

There is an allowance in the Paali texts that 'medicinal-tonics' can be taken in the afternoon while 'lifetime-medicines' may be consumed any time they are needed. (See Lifetime Medicines.)

There are different interpretations and practices about how ill a bhikkhu has to be for it to be allowable to take such 'medicines.' Some bhikkhus will not take anything other than pure water, while some will over-stretch the Rule to even drinking 'medicinal' food-drinks (e.g., Ovaltine) in the afternoon. Some bhikkhus will consider tea-leaves allowable (as 'herbs') while some will see it as food or as a 'stimulant' (caffeine) and therefore not appropriate. Also, the ordinary rural villagers of South East Asia (until very recently) would have had no tea or coffee to drink, so such items could be considered quite a luxury. It will depend on local conditions and interpretations, which are allowed for in the Vinaya through the Great Standards. (See also Lifetime Medicines.)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyesako/laygui...

Fascinating, thanks!

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