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Comment by moralestapia | Hacker News Reader

This is very naive and short-sighted, what percentage of your income go to boots? 1%? Your own example is talking about a ROI of 50USD in years, yeah sure ... that's wealth right there.

People spend 90% of their wage on: rent, food and basic services. Can you be very smart and hack your way into halving your monthly rent? Can you be very smart and buy a really good potato that will last you for years? Can you be very smart and negotiate a better rate for the utilities you pay? Come on, man.

Of course, planning and spending carefully go a long way, but that metaphor is a joke.

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Of course it is a joke, it is Terry Pratchett after all.

But there is a serious problem behind it.

For example, with food, if you have enough money you can afford to buy large quantities and take advantage of discounts.

For rent, it you have money, deposits won't be a problem, and landlord may be more willing to give you interesting offers. Poor people are at risk of not being able to pay the rent, and landlords have to account for it. You may even buy and not pay the rent.

For utilities, if you have money, you can buy more efficient heaters and appliances, better isolation, maybe even solar panels and stuff like that which may be profitable after a few years.

I mentioned higher up in the thread, but this is exactly why we need UBI. UBI gives the poor some leverage to avoid being exploited due to circumstance(s). Yes, we will get some inflation - but I don't see that as bad. A lot of the reason we have very low inflation right now is because the balance is skewed too far in favor of capital over labor (and that is due to being able to offshore - which should be penalized appropriately, imho).

I used to think UBI was the solution, but it has a severe risk of creating a permanent underclass. Then I learned about a Federal Job Guarantee where if the private sector chooses not to provide jobs then the Federal govt will step in and become the job provider of last resort with salaries going for a living wage. This is a stronger guarantee than merely a minimum wage, because companies will just cut jobs in a small town; the Job guarantee will ensure that labour won't just be laid off permanently. It also has some nice properties economists like such as being an automatic stabilizer during recessions when companies are loathe to invest in the economy, while during the good times, fewer people will be on the Federal job program.

UBI has the advantage of people being able to re-skill to take advantage of market opportunities (people going back to school for engineering, say), as well as accounting for situations like stay-at-home parents, so I think it has certain advantages over a Federal Jobs guarantee.

That said, I don't see why we can't have both (A base level of UBI + a federal jobs guarantee)

No, but if you're not poor, you can not live in an expensive urban area within walking distance of your minimum wage jobs. If you are not poor, you can buy 10lbs of potatos and store the excess in a cool, dark cabinet until you eat them rather than buying today's potato at the convenience store on your way home for a 100% markup. If you are not poor, you can renovate and install insulation so that you are not paying to heat or cool the neighborhood.

Metaphors can be tricky.

The concept that money is required for investments that save money generalizes to nearly everything. Buying groceries in bulk is cheaper, but requires more money at once. Preventative maintenance on your car can be much cheaper than only repairing things once they break. If you own a home in a place that sees snow, insulation and oil/gas heating (as opposed to electrical heating) can save lots amounts of money, but are expensive to get.

If you don't have any money right now you are often forced to make decisions that cost you more money later, which sets up a vicious circle.

You really can do all of these things and you don’t have to be very smart.

AirBnB exists, for example. There have been people who sleep in trains and rent out their apartment in their absence - it’s not fun, but it does reduce rent.

Potatoes can be grown, for example.

You can shop around for a place where utilities are included, for example - and many utility companies will give you rebates to do things that lower your bill.

None of these are really a path out of poverty though.

Can you be very smart and hack your way into halving your monthly rent?

Yes, by splitting with someone else, or worst case moving.

Can you be very smart and buy a really good potato that will last you for years?

Yes again, by cutting and planting it, or at least part of it.

Can you be very smart and negotiate a better rate for the utilities you pay?

Sometimes, by moving to a lower cost area, or by shedding unnecessary usage and getting cheaper options. Get slow Internet instead of cable TV. Use an older phone on a cheap cell plan instead of the latest flagship on a subsidized plan. Take shorter, colder showers. Turn the lights off.

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