Kiwi IRC founder stops contributing to IRC after Freenode drama
gist.github.com
gist.github.com
Which made me think: To a New Zealander, Kiwi is our word for ourselves (or the bird). You'll never see BritishIRC or AustralianIRC. It's odd to see a part of our national identity used like that.
(Not being too serious here: I also am well aware that our Kiwifruit exporters have done such a great job of branding that people overseas forget the "fruit" part, and just call them "Kiwis". So we did it to ourselves! Also, the bird came first)
The name kiwi fruit seem to have come from US servicemen stationed in NZ and Australia during WW2 similarly to how Americano became a name for a coffee drink which is just a diluted espresso since the Americans stationed in Italy were used to weaker coffee and found espresso too strong.
"Kiwifruit is native to central and eastern China."
Besides, perhaps the author just likes kiwifruit?
I did encounter some poeple with "issues" where weirdly, I guess because we all try to use our nick, the confrontations are harsher ( than on anonymous places like the chans).
I had one person convinced for 3 hours that I was for some reason a bad person because I asked a simple question about libraries, and well that was non stop abuse. I cant imagine how hard it is to be a dev.
On the other hand freenode is where I knew I could contact someone working at a big company who might be able to resolve an issue and also get the word out about something.
One fond memory I have is witnessing the first real Bitcoin crash a decade ago, I think it was from $50 down to $5 or something, and just before it happened these random nicks appeared in the channel and started trolling everyone.
Thank you to everyone who contributed to freenode, I wish I knew how I could help support it in the right way.
A letter of resignation signed by three staff members with some context: https://archive.ph/2TpKi
If anybody is looking for a FLOSS web-based IRC client, I recommend checking out TheLounge.
"(Tiny bit of context, The Snoonet network was sold by its founder, didn't explain to the network staff, then I had to explain to the staff (i think roughly a year later) what had happened as clear possible, I still get blamed for selling the network though)"
Christel stepped down, new staff lead shut out Andrew Lee, not realising the depth of his ownership - helped by both Christel and Andrew Lee downplaying it in the past. When it became clear that "Freenode" was owned by Andrew Lee, and not the volunteer run organisation they believed it to be, drama ensued over whether she had the legal right to (probably yes), whether it was morally appropriate to (probably not) and what she actually sold (Freenode runs via volunteer staff on loaned servers, none of which freenode ltd owns or has contracts for, so it basically just owns a domain and a website).
After the legal discussions found that Andrew Lee did legally own whatever freenode itself owned, the staff all quit and formed libera.chat, their own network. Andrew Lee brought in new staff to freenode and some policy changes (notably allowing network ops to reclaim channels that were abandoned as redirects, and toning down the code of conduct portion).
More detailed timeline: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27236455
Instead, they decided to portray this as a hostile takeover in order to gather further sympathy from the public at large without providing any evidence that Andrew actually planned this.
Christel could have cleared any misunderstandings to both sides, yet she is the only person who got anything out of this, with an acquisition and a salary, while Andrew is the target of a smear campaign after spending who knows how much money sponsoring freenode for years, and the staff and community had to create a brand new network after spending who knows how much time on running freenode for years.
there were misunderstandings on both sides on who owns what, and actions, while initially well-meaning that were influenced by suspicion and mistrust of the other side. mistrust that was caused by those early misunderstandings.
Ask HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27253900
Timeline document: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27250514
Andrew Lee <rasengan> currently controls the freenode domains and is being accused of a hostile takeover. The network was sold to Andrew Lee by Christel Dahlskjaer <christel>, who was head of staff until she resigned in March 2021.
The other side seems to be the "staff", which seems to have mostly moved over to the libera.chat side now. Among them <tomaw>, who was elected as head of staff after <christel>'s resignation.
What I don't fully understand is the structure of the Freenode network. There's the domain/website, presumably under control of Andrew. There are the individual servers, which as I understand it are under the control of their independent owners/maintainers, some of which are also "staff" but others aren't. There is the nickserv database that is likely under control of Andrew Lee now, although it's unclear on what infrastructure it runs, who owns it, who pays for it, where it is, etc.
Doesn't it sound contradictory to be accused of a hostile takeover of something you already own?
The question is really... what is an IRC network, and what constitutes ownership of it? If all the people who own and run the IRC servers themselves change their banner from Freenode to Baznode, and tell people to start connecting to irc.baznode.com instead, then perhaps the entity that owns freenode.com doesn't really own an IRC network?
(I know that's not what happened, as Freenode-the-IRC-network is still running as-is, but just presenting it here given that it could happen based on how the servers are run.)
Looks like Lee legally owns something. I am not exactly sure what it is? Something much less than the entire IRC network. Some kind of account to something. First Wesley had revoked Lee's access, and then returned it. Anyway, when Lee asked for this access to whatever it is that he owns, it was seen as an attempt to a hostile takeover.
"I was locked out of the account"
"Finally, tomaw voluntarily handed back all of the accesses"
https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/blob/main/content/news/2...
(edit: Maybe that when all this drama started, Wesley held on giving access again.)
15 march: I have not, am not, and will not interfere with the operations of freenode outside of when asked for help
It has turned into cult mentality, like mentioned in this post going as far as to find anything... often completely unrelated to the initial discussion, in order to try to discredit their viewpoints. It is simply a away to silence people that challenge them, even though in a healthy community constructive criticism should be considered a positive thing to help improve.
there are pockets of wholesome communities, and the overall IRC "culture" has been pretty toxic in my experience. it has always been far easier to find a drama queen on IRC than it has to find a person with normal reactions and thought processes.
there's just something about IRC that either brings out that side in people, or attracts that type of person, or both.
it really is sad. it could be such a useful resource, and maybe it is. maybe I just had back luck 20 years ago. I don't miss IRC, I do know that.
People should go away and come back when the storm is over.
Thanks for their work too, as many kiwirc helped me many times.
In December 2016, rasengan (via Private Internet Access) sponsors it (https://snoonet.org/posts/2016/12/15/introducing-our-newest-...).
In May 2017, Snoonet joins the the PIA family (https://snoonet.org/posts/2017/05/11/snoonet-joins-the-priva...).
At that time, rdv, a co-founder of Snoonet, was hired at LTM as (among other titles) "Community Relations Manager", and announced to the staff that he could now "offer LTM's resources to Snoonet; the same resources provided to Freenode", while reassuring that "the idea is to keep IRC networks in tact and operational as they always were". His goal at LTM was to "protect and keep in tact what matters most: underground communities".
bloodygonzo, a staffer, precised to the staff that "LTM has bought Snoonet and will officially cover snoonet and make sure we have the legal and administrative aid of LTM. LTM has agreed to leave snoonet as is and continue to allow us to run things as we see fit.".
In October 2018, Snoonet partners with IRC.com (https://snoonet.org/posts/2018/11/22/important-changes-to-sn...), linking the two.
noeatnosleep (who worked at LTM, at a role to safeguard LTM's investment) then the head of staff (allegedly not installed in this post by a general consensus), commented on [hn](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376571): "LTM provides servers for us, with no asks or meddling".
prawnsalad says to the staff that "so yea, snoonet.org will still be independant as mcuh as it can be. the branding, the communities here, etc, wont change. and noeatnosleep is still running that side of thigns to grow snoonet".
In February 2019, prawnsalad clarifies the IRC.com partnership (https://gist.github.com/prawnsalad/e61069c23e9fc0ed0e4658cbf...), including that "Snoonet is a project under the IRC.com company". This is discussed in an irc channel with the staff (https://sand.cat/fiW5QDYXauoKwybL/snoo-takeover.txt), where some reproach that he had previously said that "While for the most part Snoonet is entirely free to do as it pleases,".
In October 2019, prawnsald decides to bring IRC.com and Snoonet more "inline" (https://web.archive.org/web/20191021113301/https://gist.gith...), prompting some staffers to resigns: linuxdaemon (https://gist.github.com/linuxdaemon/9555cc4c2c73eefc4dfec00d...), iownall555 (https://gist.github.com/iownall555/69543286e9ed31ef70362429d...), A_Dragon (https://gist.github.com/A-UNDERSCORE-D/66dcf27eaf14ecc0b07a6...).
It is also worth noting that during theses years, it has been asked to the staff to give server access to unknown people at random times, and that rdv had been expelled from the network due to very questionable behavior, and noeatnosleep has left the staff. Dates for theses events are unknown to me.
Make your opinion, and any resemblance to other current events is fortuitous.