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Comment by martpie | Hacker News Reader

In terms of reduced friction, I'm a big fan of the swiss transport system: you can hop in any bus or train without validating your ticket anywhere, and you get controlled from time to time. And the fine are big.

So you get:

- not much friction (+ the app is great)

- you use transports more -> you pay more (and not everyone)

- fraud is low because the fines are big enough to dissuade people, and increase every time you get caught

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Germany has the same. I once had to pay a 80 euro fine because the driver opened just the middle door at the bus stop as he had nearly skipped the stop, and I hopped in without thinking, and the ticket controlled who stopped me (as I was going to the front to get a ticket) argued that I had to enter from the front door if I didn't already have a ticket. Still infuriates me when I think about it.

This is just an anecdote, of course. I don't actually disagree with you.

In Sweden the fine is 120€..

This was 8 years ago, not sure how much it is these days. It could as well be 1 euro, I'd still be very angry, as it's not about the money.

In Vienna, the airport is situated in such a way with respect to the ticketing zones as to trick visitors into not getting the right ticket. I don't remember the details, unfortunately, but judging by extremely unusual frequency of checks on that route, it appears intentionally set up that way to extract fines from tourists.

Just see the first results at https://www.google.com/search?q=vienna+airport+transport+fin...

Same in Berlin as well, the Schonefeld/BER airport is just outside of A+B zone, which requires a more expensive ticket.

I doubt this is specifically to "trick" visitors, but to gain revenue to pay for the cost of the line to the airport — which is otherwise not especially popular.

A+B correspond to the city limits of Berlin, and BER is outside of the city limits.

I'm not saying that this is set in stone. They could probably include BER in B if they wanted, but the most benign explanation is that it just started out this way because of how the fare zones were defined, and now they keep it that way because few companies hate extra revenue.

In some parts of Southern Europe, a bemused looking tourist who offered even the mildest defense that they didn't understand the zoning system would be surrounded by locals taking their side and rebuking the official.

    "Why are you doing this to them? They have a ticket!"
    "Let them go, they are just trying to get to the city!"
    "Don't pay it! He is a thief! All the train company people are thieves!"

At the central station in Amsterdam, there are ticket machines with a screenful of zones, prices and destinations in Dutch, and a single large friendly button "I want to go to Schipol Airport".

80 euro might be a reasonable price for having grasped an important truth about how Germany works.

I understand that this came across as rude, but I'm not trying to say that Germany is a Kafkaesque hellhole. I love Germany. Simply this - there is no 'good faith' defense when breaking rules in Germany. If you have the wrong ticket, it doesn't matter that you tried to buy the right ticket and were sold the wrong ticket. It's your responsibility to have the right ticket, regardless of the actions of others, even other employees of the same organization. If you didn't know the rules, that's your problem, even if the rules are hard to understand.

In Italy, I have seen the 'good faith' defense taken to extremes. "If you didn't want me to do (this clearly illegal and unapproved thing), why did (some other person in any official capacity) do (this very benign and pro-social thing which could be tortuously misinterpreted as an endorsement of the first thing)??" In Germany this doesn't exist. In some cases like the middle door of the bus, it will almost seem like entrapment. (The correct behavior would have been to go to the front door of the bus and require the driver to open it.) In many cases, it is only a pain to those who don't understand the system. Often, it is fairer since 'let this one slide officer' leads to discrimination by the officer.

>I understand that this came across as rude, but I'm not trying to say that Germany is a Kafkaesque hellhole. I love Germany. Simply this - there is no 'good faith' defense when breaking rules in Germany.

It's thought that Franklin Roosevelt's view of Germany and Germans' nature was affected by his being, as a young visitor, arrested four times in one day in the Black Forest (https://archive.org/details/rooseveltinretro00gunt/page/170/...).

A big change in the Netherlands in the past decade or so has been the introduction of a chip / card based checkin, instead of tickets or whatever. They were able to effectively seal off train and tram stations everywhere unless you had a valid ticket, changing the whole system from "you need a ticket to get on board" to "you need a ticket to go onto the station". It's improved safety by a lot as well - less belligerent travelers without a ticket getting aggressive when their ticket is validated.

What are "tram stations"?

In Poland, most tram stops are not isolated from streets, and look like that:

https://www.transport-publiczny.pl/img/20170721121933StareMi...

https://www.ztm.poznan.pl/assets/Uploads/Przystanek-tramwajo...

Seems like "isolating" them would increase friction. It makes a lot of sense in case of trains or metro but don't see it for trams.

I can't think of anything like a tram station in Amsterdam, at least for most stops (maybe Centraal?).

Some cities have raised tram platforms - Manchester UK and Stuttgart DE come to mind. Not sure if you need a ticket to be on them, doesn't make sense as the ticket machine is on the platform.

> Seems like "isolating" them would increase friction. It makes a lot of sense in case of trains or metro but don't see it for trams.

The bus rapid transit system in Curitiba Brazil uses enclosed stops:

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,288...

It only increases if you don't pay the 100 CHF fine on the spot. If you do, they don't take your details.

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