Classic HN missing the point of social interaction and the benefits it provides.
Imagine being one of the few Mormons, observant Muslims, or recovering alcoholics at a company that "rewards" your team with Happy Hours. Or being someone who's been sexually harassed or assaulted at previous events where coworkers drank too much.
I'm not suggesting that it's easy (or even possible) to plan a social event that's guaranteed to be welcomed by every member of a team. But I think events that focus or rely on alcohol as the means of team bonding can be a bad idea depending on the team.
I'm much better with a long lunch + socialize and then piss off early from work as a reward.
"Let's go down to the pub" is still capitalizing on my time. It's still work, just the location has changed. And in the past it has often started at 3 and then kept going and going until way later than if I'd just worked out my day.
There is always some idealism around it like "oh if you don't drink you don't have to, just come hang out for a bit" or "you don't have to stay late you can leave early" but in practice people aren't actually that understanding. You try to head home and it's all "you're not having a good time?" Or "you're not a team player"
No thanks. I'll pass on all of that from now on.
I'm going down the pub - anyone care to join me? I'm buying."
That's why they don't mind paying for these, because it is seen as additional collaboration/problem solving time. but they 100% would not be okay with handing out additional money to those who do not wish to attend.
Edit: To clarify as well, I don't think people should feel forced or inclined to attend these events for whatever reason they wish, this is just the argument I know and quite literally is in onboarding training I've taken.
Definitely not.
1. I am not fond of drinking with workmates. An occasional, incidental, one-on-one or not much more: OK. In groups ("teams"): no thanks, this isn't school, we are not students, so no pseudo school party.
2. I abhor having drinks with people who have any kind of hierarchical power upon me.
What makes you think I want to even have one drink of alcohol?
Funny thing is the opposite isn't great either. I've seen a startup that likes doing this. Except all the decision-makers are in SF, not at the field office. So HH at the field office means none of the participants have any real power to see your passion, hear your ideas, or conversely for you to learn from their wisdom. It is still bonding for the team, but the team site is all terminal dead-end jobs.
My experience has been that the opportunity to actually learn from people’s wisdom has little to do with their heirarchical position, though the opportunity to suck up by making a show of “learning from their wisdom” might.
Imo the key is making sure you don’t create a perception that you punish or bully people for not participating. As evidenced by this thread, it’s easy to do even inadvertently.
But, is it ingrained griping?
Or Social Inequity Aversion? I don't like beer, so if you get it and I have to watch stupid sports and drink water, I don't want you to have your reward?
It’s all part of the package if you manage people. As I said, you need to be careful to avoid behaving in a way that creates bad situations. (Ie I’m not advocating frat house behavior or alcohol culture at work)
I love working on a team. I don't want to spend my free time with them. That's what my friends are for.
Sometimes people from the team become friends that I spend time with outside of work, but that's on my terms not my employers.
It really seems like many people do not have any kind of healthy boundary with their employer.
I’m pretty antisocial, personally, and love it when my workmates get to the point and focus on the actual “drone”-tasks. Why? Because that is why I do software. I don’t do software because I love people. I don’t do software because I love the paycheck. I do software because I love software and every second away from focusing on the concerns of producing quality software just seems like a genuine waste of time. Even here on HN, it’s mostly an opportunity to safely experiment with “politics” in a way that isn’t totally exhausting.
I get that everyone is not like me, and I’m okay with that. I don’t expect everyone to have my preferences.
I’d personally prefer to be treated as a respected “drone” (now THAT seems rude) and I don’t really want to spend time on banter, unless it’s being used as a metaphor that can improve our collective output.
This is “fun.” This is why I “work” (it’s not work to me). Discussing requirements and problem solving solutions is great; it’s fun. Happy hour is “work” to me. Please don’t act like I’m rude just because I don’t share your preferences.
I interpreted "I don't care about you as a person" as "I don't think you have moral worth outside your instrumental value to me", which goes beyond rudeness and into questions of whether the person can be trusted at all.
Presenting it as a clear-cut _you are a queue of work and paychecks_ is where it breeds conflict. For the royal you that description is merely a description and expresses no judgement, it is simply the _why_ of your intentional lack of interaction with your coworkers.
To the people on the other side, that description brings back the negative feelings they felt when a coworker that held that same opinion (not you) was unnecesarily rude at work and shielded his failings behind the _I don’t do people_ cover.
I realize that asking you to use the human touch (for lack of a better term) is asking you to have to “work” to cater to the social aspects that you are trying to not get involved with…
So instead I’ll posit that your last paragraph is a perfectly acceptable response to the eternal “want to join and be social” question. It’s innofensive yet firm, and it conveys your position in a concise way that nobody can really pick apart unless they want to make an scene and look bad.
So who do I not see, the ones who insisted I must follow their favourite sport teams, the ones who got so drunk on the weekend they could not remember what they did but thought I should have been with them. The one (thank goodness it was only one) who keep eyeing the high school girls while we were in our 30s and 40S. And last the ones who always had to go out for a smoke, I don't want to imagine what their places were like.
You can like some people, but some people you just do not want to be around when you are not being paid to work with them.
It's fine that some teams of workers socialize, and are expected to socialize.
It's fine for teams to select for people who will socially mesh with the office culture.
Nobody here is wrong; just work at a company where the culture fits what you want. Not everybody wants or needs the same thing.
I know I like to drink.
There are people who don't like to drink and there are people who are not allowed to drink due to their believe/health problem. And they are not minority-minority in some places
Heaven forbid my first meal of the day is lunch and not breakfast.
People who have "normal" eating habits just can't understand.
Worse, later they claim they would never do such a thing.
I find these kinds of social outings shitty because I'm invariably left out, asked why I'm left out, and now we're talking about my health issues. Politely declining is never met as well as you'd like it to be (people always insist), so either I forcefully decline so as to avoid option #2 (and people think I'm an asshole); or I take option #2 and talk about it, and am now sad because it sucks and will never stop sucking and I don't really like bringing it up.
Then, the following script: everyone gives the minimum pity, commensurate with social niceties. At least two people tell me about their experiences with food intolerances (not even remotely the same thing) and how they got over it (which is not possible with adult-developed food allergies), or they suggest that it's leaky-gut (not scientifically-proven to exist; god knows I've looked into it regardless), or suggest acupuncture, or some other pseudoscience bullshit. Now I get to either choose to tumble head-first into yet another unpaid lecture on the nuances of food allergies, and perhaps inform them as to why what they're suggesting isn't scientifically sound (which is bound to offend, no matter how nicely I say it, because pseudoscience and pop-science is believed with near-religious fervor; the best I'm gonna get is "agree to disagree," so it's not worth it). Or -- my preferred choice nowadays -- I nod and smile and thank them for their novel, sage advice, and tell them I'll be sure to contact the homeopath they suggested first thing tomorrow, as I'm sure that, finally, now, thanks to their intervention, my nightmare is about to come to an end.
At this point, an uncomfortable amount of people are listening to me. I mumble something about "and..uh...yeah." Someone stumbles to change the subject, the wheels of conversation spin in the mud for a while before finally getting back to normal -- and everyone subtly ignores me for the rest of the night, lest I bring down the mood or suck the air out of the room again.
I've been through this song and dance so many times, I'm completely over it and now just avoid it altogether. Which sucks, because now you're the social pariah that never wants to hang out (because virtually all social gatherings revolve around food). I want nothing more than to enjoy good food and drink with my friends and peers and to be happy and merry and well-fed and buzzed. That used to be my element.
It's a touchy subject, because prior to age 30, I was the biggest "foodie" and craft beer freak you've ever met. Finding a new restaurant or trying something I'd never eaten before was literally my favorite activity, period. I was legendary for my weight-to-ability-to-pound-food ratio (I've always been a stick).
Now, it's rice and chicken (no spices!) from here to the grave. Washed down with water, and nothing but. Coffee in the morning is fine -- thankfully, I'm not yet allergic to that (no OJ, though).
I hate that my best option is "lie and smile" -- saying "I'm not hungry" (when I'm actually starving, made worse by watching everyone else eat and enjoy the camaraderie that only a shared meal can bring, slowly losing blood sugar and trying in vain to combat the moodiness that always accompanies it); or "I need to wake up early" (as an excuse for no drinks; otherwise some asshole pressures you to drink anyway or someone across the table gives you a knowing nod, thinking they've found another fellow AA attendee, which now you'll be talking about later).
And because it smells pretty bad socially to ask for that Happy Hour "compensation" be paid in another way ("hey, mind giving me a check for the money you would've spent on my meal and drinks?" will obviously never fly), I'm now just getting literally paid less than everyone else, and getting left out, and being labelled a social pariah no matter which of the above paths I take.
It sucks.
Life and people are infinitely complex and varied, and those of us reluctantly pushed outside of the mainstream normal are constantly fighting to simply be understood, let alone to not have the only choices thrust upon us be ridiculed.
Would you go bowling with me? Could we play cricket in a nearby field? Can we sing karaoke? Would it be better or worse if our coworkers were drunk while singing?
But a more valuable answer has less to do with me personally and more to do with people with tons of food allergies in general:
-We are probably down to invite you over and cook for you. Just be prepared for stuff with lots of alternatives, or somewhat strange dishes. That said, I can eat steak and potatoes, so I'm always down to grill.
-If we go do a thing, like bowling, understand that the time might be a little earlier or later than we'd like, because I might want to eat first or duck out early to go home to eat. I can get by if I bring snacks, but unfortunately there just aren't many non-perishable snacks that I can eat.
-Day trips tend to be limited since I can't just grab food somewhere. Same deal as above applies. This is honestly the worst. I miss just heading out somewhere for a long day on the weekend, getting brunch, then dinner, then ice cream...man. The freedom is incredible.