Two airlines will postpone sales of alcohol amid surge of in-flight violence | Hacker News Reader

Two airlines will postpone sales of alcohol amid surge of in-flight violence

nytimes.com

55 pointsfortran7765 comments

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They banned sales, not serving. American is still serving alcohol to business and first class passengers.

If you’re banned from on airline are you banned from the others?

I don’t understand how people get some angry. Punching someone over being asked to keep your seatbelt on? SMH

Even if the flight attendant threw the first punch there’s no point of fighting back on the plane IMO.

I mean, people have a lot going on behind the scenes, especially during times of societal stress (like covid).

I'm sure we've all experienced ourselves getting angry at other people for small things due to stresses/problems unrelated to the actual incident.

I am pretty sure the inner US political struggle plays in here a lot (as stress). But all of that does not excuse offloading on a stewardess, waitress or delivery guy.

Sure, but impulse control is a thing most humans have.

And sure, violence can solve problems and let you get away with doing things, but I'm utterly fascinated by people being belligerent on planes. You are literally locked into a metal tube together with everyone else. If you make enough trouble, you will be dragged out of the plane by police, either before takeoff, or right after landing.

There are no other scenarios. Airline crew will not back off. You will do as told, or the plane won't take off. It doesn't matter how right you are, or how angry you are.

Getting angry is one thing. Punching a person in the face is another. That's where your right to get angry ends.

> American said that alcohol would continue to be served in first class and business class, but only during the flight and not before departure.

So only postponed if you are the wrong class.

Logically correct. The wrong class has less to lose that would benefit the company.

Thanks for walking me through the thought process, I'm sure American paid the firm a lot money for that analysis.

First/business has a _much_ lower ratio of passengers per flight attendant, and passengers who are generally more experienced travelers. Being banned from an airline for misbehaving is a huge impact for a business traveler, whereas Karen might have to drive to Disneyland next time.

> Being banned from an airline for misbehaving is a huge impact for a business traveler

Why would it be a big deal? If you get banned from American, can't you just call United and they will match your status. You are still spending tens of thousands of dollars and they all want your money. Sure, your airport might no longer be a hub but I'd think that is about it.

And business travelers have no problem mis-behaving, some do it habitually until they accidentally harass an oligarch. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10104252140827491&se...

If your banned from American, you can be banned from all the carriers under OneWorld.

If you did something bad enough to be arrested, you may be put on the No Fly list or at least need to complete a passenger redress to fly again.

oh get off it. I personally cant afford the better classes, and I support this decision. 99% of the shitty people that do stuff like this, are in coach.

Punish the people who are causing the problem, not everyone.

Curfew is now in effect.

They should start serving THC gummies instead. No more fights. Then throw on the South Park episode 'I'm a Little Bit Country'.

Is this really all about masks? Or is it pandemic-related cabin fever? Is it at all similar to the increase in traffic fatalities in the US?

I believe the issue was the passenger unbuckling and getting out of her seat before the plane stopped moving.

Yeah this is not as harmless as it looks

Then something happens (sudden braking, etc, or maybe even something worse) and this person will hit her face on the floor: suddenly it will all be the airlines fault.

Yeah, blacklisting and prosecution seems appropriate.

Don't forget the fact that the passenger assaulted a flight attendant.

I hope anyone that assaults a flight attendant for them doing their job is blacklisted.

Does drinking Alcohol increases chances of one getting into violence, in-general?

Of course, alcohol lowers inhibitions and impairs judgement.

It lowers inhibitions and causes confusion, which likely explains an increase in violent tendencies from some people that drink.

In the quantities we're talking about - it's unlikely. If we're going to take a small amount of alcohol seriously, then lets also consider the effects of re-breathing your own carbon dioxide due to a mask covered in moisture from your own breath. As carbon dioxide pollution increases, people's rational decision making capabilities also decrease.

I would suggest people are agitated for a few reasons:

1. They are being forced to wear masks. There can be a whole list of legitimate reasons you may not want to wear one, including preference.

2. They are being put into close proximity with people that may or may not have COVID. They've been told for an entire year that there is this super killer virus and for the large majority of people, it's simply the flu.

3. People are generally worse off than they were a year ago. They have significantly less income, the flights cost more (due to COVID measures) and their money is now worth less due to inflation.

To make matters worse, if you're an alcoholic, stressed or scared of flying, you can no longer have a small drink either. And that's not to mention that drinking a shot of spirit for example would actually have the effect of killing COVID in your throat.

Sorry these points all don't make sense and don't explain violence. There are very clear, well established links between alcohol consumption and violence. It seems like you use this story as a way to post your "anti-covid" propaganda.

> The flight attendant lost two teeth in the assault, according to her union, and the passenger, who was identified by the police as Vyvianna Quinonez, 28, has been charged with battery causing serious bodily injury. She has also been barred for life from flying Southwest, the airline said.

What the hell is wrong with people.

I think 2020 made everyone insane. Political chaos, conspiracy theories, isolation, racial injustice followed by reduced trust in authorities, reduced overall adherence to social norms due to fatigue from the pandemic, etc...

Climate change is a catalyst for conflict.

I don't think climate change has anything to do with a pressurized, climate controlled airliner.

Not immediately but it creates changes in the suitability of systems that were designed for a different arrangement, leading to shifted economic dynamics, leading to people having their lives affected in various ways, leading to some people's lives turning upside down, leading to people in an airplane that are probably more primed to get angry than would be otherwise.

Among a variety of things. Not saying climate change made this person act this way.

EDIT: people seem to dislike this message for some reason. I'd be curious to learn why.

I think your message is fair and reasonable.

No, probably not directly. But could it be a catalyst for conflict?

Absolutely this is a huge decisive factor, almost like the elephant in the room.

I don't necessarily agree that we should use these events as scapegoats. We should truly push for more personal responsibility when it comes to behaving like a civilized member of society.

Too often do we find people breaking the social contract of decency and being good to one and other.

Honest question, but if Southwest felt it necessary to ban this customer then why not other airlines? Was this a Southwest targeted attack?

Because it was on a Southwest flight. I don't think media asked KLM or Indigo if they'd like to have an extremist on their flights.

Honestly, if your behavior was bad enough to get you banned from one airline for life, you are a menace and should be banned from all of them. I don’t want to sit down next to someone on a Delta flight who assaulted a flight attendant on Southwest.

Eh, some people are inherently violent. Many more people can be pushed to extremes given extreme circumstances. As long as you don't really know all the details, chances are good that people regret their actions and are going to learn from the event and change.

Barring them from all possible flights for the rest of their life, which may yet last many decades, is likely to do more harm than good because it will cause resentment that can block this improvement in a person. By contrast, barring them from just one airline allows them to continue to live their life while also acting as a permanent reminder to be better.

I would also argue that punishment by an organized monopoly situation (like airlines or tech giants) would create parallel structures to the law and order created by the nation states we created as the society. It would undermine the legal system.

Sorry, but when I’m in an aluminum can 35k feet in the air, I don’t want “inherently violent” people there with me or people with such poor impulse control that they might snap at anything they perceive as extreme.

In that case, you really shouldn't fly in commercial planes to begin with.

In case it isn't obvious: the number of people who can be triggered to be violent in the right circumstances is far higher than the number of people who have been so triggered. It's probably a significantly double-digit percentage of the population.

I'm not sure that's the rational Delta would have. "We'll give you leniency because you punched our competitor's flight attendant."

If we wanted such private bans to be rehabilitative then private companies should not be allowed to impose life-time bans.

Southwest doesn't have that option. They can only ban passengers from their own airline.

If the FBI is involved (interfering with a crew member's duties is a federal crime), they can add her to the no fly list via TSA if warranted. And I think all of these people that act up should be, or in the case of psychiatric reasons, should be required to fly with a caretaker.

I am not sure why my other comment was downvoted to oblivion. ONE airline banning a passenger is NOT the same as being added to the no fly list. Period.

I'm not talking about Southwest banning them from Delta, I'm talking about why say, Delta doesn't decide they do not want known violent passengers?

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

Because airlines don't share passenger information like this except through the TSA...

People are exhausted, emotionally, mentally, physically and it's going to get worse. Whatever is happening was already brewing, the Pandemic just expedited it. In this specific case, you put a bunch of already fragile people through TSA checkpoints, shitty airports, stuffed planes and they just can't take any shit anymore. It's not right what she did but I'm not surprised.

I have no sympathy for this lady (The attacker).

I do believe we are going into a worse place than before Covid.

Things for many Americans weren't so great before Covid, and I feel the misplaced anger when I'm out.

I hope I'm wrong. I'm usually wrong predicting most things.

I liked a few things over quarantine. Violent crime seemed to go down, and people seemed less stressed out in a weird ironic way.

Personally, this opening is not the joyous event I imagined.

Oh yea, the amount of new homeless people in my county is staggering. The authorities seemed a bit understanding for awhile. Now--I see cops harasssing them with vigor. I don't like it at all.

I guess it makes sence. The wealthy got richer over Covid for the most part. The rest of us are confused, disenfranchised, and tired? Like before Covid?

Violent crime wasn’t down, unfortunately, and it is actually going up.

Approximately 30% of the United States now lives in a world with a completely alternate set of facts. They discovered the more they shun any information that is inconvenient to their world truth, the more persecuted by the other 70% they become - which of course only reinforces how right they are.

Thank you for putting this into words.

How is this relevant to the article and/or violence? Are the alternate facts you speak of ones to harm others?

Sorry it’s just that what you’re saying is pretty vague

The implication is this increase in unruliness is caused by a small but vocal percentage of people refusing to wear masks for stupid reasons on airlines with mask requirements. It’s possible this isn’t the cause, and that the flying public is just significantly unruly now for some other reason that I’m not aware of.

I heard the theory that the pandemic broke peoples brains and caused a rise in anti social behavior in multiple contexts but I don’t buy it yet.

The article says 1900 of the 2500 unruliness complaints over the last year at one airline were due to people not wearing masks.

Towards the end of the article they cite masks as one of the contributing factors to the rise in violence. But the airline wants to make it clear that is definitely not the only cause.

It means it's pretty easy to get into a fight when you're surrounded by idiots and ignorance.

The comment I was replying to specifically asked "What the hell is wrong with people."

30% of the US is less than 1% of the population of Earth.

The problems of idiots being violent are unfortunately much more widespread than that.

Other media sources report witnesses claim the flight attendant was escalating the situation which hit a breaking point when the flight attendant started touching the passenger. If true, it certainly doesn't justify beating someone and knocking their teeth out, but does add some depth to the situation. Flight attendants have quite a bit of authority and leeway in how to handle situations with passengers but in the current tense environment, unless someone must be physically restrained, touching them is a bad idea.

An airplane is not a democracy and federal laws even specify that passengers are to submit to the authority of airline employees.

What's the point of this? Most of the people looking to go on a bender and get rowdy on a flight will be packing a gallon zip lock bag with dozens of 50ml bottles of liquor.

People with that level of forethought are, in my totally unscientific opinion, not likely to impulsively knock the teeth from a stewardess' mouth.

Drinking alcohol that wasn’t served to you by the flight attendants is illegal.

So is punching flight attendants. It didn't stop them in this instance.

Exceeding the posted speed limit is also illegal, and few care. What's important is the consequence for getting caught. Provided you haven't angered the flight attendant, he'll politely ask you to stop.

Source: I found zero reports of someone getting in trouble for this. Just requests to cease.

It's perfectly legal to bring these on your carry on. I see plenty of passengers order cokes and pour in their own whisky from their bag. It's common. The duty free in the airport even sells you these bottles.

I get that there are less first and business class passengers but canceling a whole cabin makes me so so frustrated. I don't need to get into detail that people in this upper classes act a fool. There could have been a better way to address this. If "flight experience" is an issue why not let people on all classses order if they have been with their airline for a sufficient time?

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