Goodbye Freenode
nedbatchelder.com
nedbatchelder.com
After a week or two of uptime, I restarted my PC. As it happened, I reconnected while Freenode was in the middle of a spam wave. Something mistook my client for a spam bot and banned my IP.
Oh well, "and nothing of value was lost" I thought and deleted Freenode from my server list. But, later that day, I discovered that I could not connect to other IRC networks: the Freenode ban was propagated to DroneBL, and then picked up by other IRC networks. I was effectively blacklisted from all of IRC. This also affected some services I was providing to a few communities.
I did get the ban removed, but after this incident, I would not recommend anyone to connect to Freenode at all. The new administration doesn't seem to have sufficient experience to fill their present position suitably.
(It all got removed very quickly when someone was contacted about it, and I have no negative opinion about the experience because, in my case, it very much was of my own making, I just mention it so you're aware that sort of blacklisting is not limited to freenode.)
The current Fleenode is nothing that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: it destroyed the stability of all the projects that previously used it by flipping the network's functioning upside down, in a very mediocre way ("accidentally" horrible communication from the current staff towards everyone else, "accidentally" taking over channels via bot action, "accidentally" k-lining irccloud about the time [3] was introduced, using the "I'm being cancelled" argument as one line of defense and "mistakes were made but they are fixed, understanding would be appreciated" as another) and with very mediocre results[1].
All of this was done seemingly in order to introduce several Freenode-branded projects[2][3][4][5] that I haven't seen anyone request. These projects, in their current shape, seriously look to me like some shiny toys that use Freenode as a hub and that are now out there, looking for use and popularity.
Congratulations and massive thanks to the Libera Chat team for proving that hard community forks are possible not just in theory, but also in practice - the transition period was short and the staff there really did everything to make it smooth. I've migrated and it seems it was a good decision, I don't look back in the slightest.
[1] https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
[2] https://chit.freenode.net/ - a bash.org clone
[3] https://bbs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone
[4] https://bnc.freenode.net/ - an irccloud clone
[5] https://jobs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone, just exclusively with job postings
I love it when people find the most ridiculous things to blame on "cancel culture". This goes toe to toe with Bob Baffert blaming it for being banned from horse racing after his Kentucky Derby winning horse being caught with steroids in his system, and after having his horses failing 31 drug tests over his career.
It's like the "dog ate my homework" of 2021
The phrase "pick a lane" springs to mind.
< root> what accidental irccloud blanket ban?
< root> I keep hearing about this?
< mst> I think all of irccloud got k-lined briefly - shit happens
< root> It's intentional for sure.
< root> I think someone accidentally removed it.
< mst> is there a public statement about that anywhere?
14:59 <@taw> IRCCloud was not klined by mistake.
14:59 <@taw> We don't allow IRCCloud on freenode.
14:59 <@taw> We offer our own free BNC, if you'd like to use that instead. <@root> irc cloud is banned cuz fck irc cloud
<@root> this was not an accident
<@root> not a mistake
<@root> actually it was supposed to happen a logn time agoSounds like a very democratic, open source, do what you will solution to me.
Since I gather that about half the people left in some of those channels were taken out by this k-line, hey, might accelerate the move anyway. :D
Hacker News has "jobs"[0] too ;)
Only logging bots remained connected and minion, and one fellow op.
And and of an era for me - I think it's been over 16 years since I joined #lisp for the first time, and around a decade of being an Op there. It helped me maintain sanity at times. While pretty much everything got moved to libera, it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to do it in a way :|
Honestly, communities should just make their own IRC servers, they're trivial in resources to run and manage, there is no need for Libera or Freenode.
If I were starting an IRC channel for a free software project now, I would put it on OFTC, which has a real governance model with elections and - mysteriously - also manages to be drama-free.
Andrew Lee has shown that he is litigious, so why expose another organisation to that risk?
The past couple months has shown that having too many eggs in a single basket can have unfun consequences, and my ideal future would be things being about 50/50 between libera and oftc so only half my IRC world is likely to be on fire at once.
OFTC and Libera Chat aren't as different as you seem to think. There is also a lot of cooperation between the two projects which has been going on for years. Solanum is being developed as a joint project and some staff members are involved with both networks.
Thanks for everything you do on inspircd and IRCv3, I've been using the former for my network for nearly 15 years now.
<@root> inpspiricd is a good project
<@root> but we'll make it way better
<@root> sadie is pretty good for a noob
<@root> but obviously its time to take things seriousSeriously it's 2021 who unironically still uses that term?
I ... just ... lolsob.
I was barely in high school when I came up with the name OFTC and I registered OFTC.net. Very early on in the process of creating OFTC, I agreed with all of the people I was creating OFTC with that I would behave as caretaker rather than owner of OFTC.net while we figured out our governance.
Ultimately we came up with a governance model, and we also managed to convince Software in the Public Interest to take custody of the domain name and have it managed in accordance with the governance model we designed.
We started with a pretty great group of both capable and well-intended people, and one of the things we figured out was that if OFTC was going to be a sustainable project, it needed more sustainable governance than the project we were leaving.
One of the key people behind the very early push for OFTC to have a stable governance model later became a Member of Parliament here in Canada.
I'm not sure if it's completely drama-free. During the community meeting on the future of FSF's presence on IRC[1], someone shared these logs:
https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/05/01
https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/05/03
https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/03/30
I don't know anything about the context of these exchanges, but nevertheless they make me worry about their moderation policies.
[1] - https://www.fsf.org/events/community-meeting-on-the-future-o...
I admire your courage, anonymous liar on the internet.
It's more like 1.5 [0]. #techrights stayed and #forth has a bridged setup. The third channel listed is #freenode.
[0] https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus#projects-and-chan...
> @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org
> and i'm a reactos developer, though we're not on libera at all
> @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org
> we're only on freenode and mattermost
(see also: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php current statistics)
Build out open standards well, instead of trying to get people to avoid services on principles alone (it doesn't go great usually).
> The current global user count of freenode exceeds the user count of the 2nd-6th largest networks, combined. I am pleased to announce, the plan to destroy freenode has failed!
But does anyone know the motivation for recent actions by Freenode?
I'm discounting conspiracy theories (e.g., flipping, sabotage) because I think anyone acting strategically wrt IRC knows that forking an IRC network has been part of the standard toolkit for responding to "damage", since almost the start.
I'm starting to lean towards a theory of there being no longer being a business reason nor ideological reason to Freenode's recent actions. At least not after the first few days.
(That started in the age of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_... , before more conventional social dynamics took over the 'Net.)
If that theory is correct, I'd guess there's a good path to something that everyone feels better about. But it might involve Freenode being turned over to a nonprofit. I think many traditional users wouldn't go back, but the right nonprofit might find a way to pivot to new service to the world. In the credible nonprofit scenario, the value of the Freenode brand now might be of the flavor: we made mistakes, learned dearly, came out much stronger.
Also, I doubt Lee would ever give up control, because it's clear controlling the network is what he wanted all along.
I think if you want to form a theory of mind re his Freenode actions, you'd be well informed by forming a theory of mind re his Korea actions. Obviously part of it is the monarchist philosophy, the idea that an autocratic government over Korea with no input from the people is somehow worth something. Even in the case of the North, you couldn't call the restoration of the monarchy an improvement. And even in monarchism in general, there's still a vague idea of government by at least a little bit of consent from at least a few of the governed, from the Glorious Revolution to the concept of the Mandate of Heaven. The so-called crown prince has none of that.
But more interestingly, Lee thinks something happened at that dinner to make him crown prince. The claim to the throne by the scion in question is already disputed, and it's far from clear that he had the power, according to the old royal rules, to make some random person who happens to have the same last name his heir. And if he does, it would be via adoption, not via a "Passing of the Sword Ceremony" and a seafood entree. There's no evidence that Lee has once participated in the yearly cultural ceremonies in Korea that honor the late royalty and still to this day involve members of the former royal house - the other claimant to the throne does that. If you're not going to stick by the very practical rule that the legitimate ruler is the person physically on the throne, you at least need to stick by the rules of the royal house about legitimacy, and he's done neither.
I believe he approaches Freenode in the same way. He genuinely believes that it is possible and reasonable to transfer control of Freenode without the involvement or consent of Freenode's users and that the good users will stay loyal to the name "Freenode," instead of to the intangible community. So he didn't even anticipate the possibility that the staff would set up their own network and manage to move almost all of the community over. He also believes that all that needs to happen is to contact one person who has a bit of a claim to Freenode and arrange for DNS to be transferred, and everything will work itself out.
What we're seeing is him operating as if everything will soon work itself out, once he deals with a few small problems. Once people forget about Libera, once the uncooperative channel ops "spamming" suggestions to try Libera are removed, once #python is turned from a channel run by the PSF to a channel with Python enthusiasts, etc., Freenode will eventually emerge as the home of FOSS, like it's always been, and he'll be on the throne.
In any case, I'm assuming Freenode is over, and that the only way it might be reborn is by abdicating the throne, and turning it over to something like a representative democracy (with a sufficiently reassuring foundation than the new spinoff).
(Incidentally, there was rare occasional young royalty or child actor on early IRC. I suppose because they had the money and time for Internet access, and the social isolation/barriers that made IRC relatively welcoming, so they could be just people. I never heard of any expecting special status on the Internet, in that time before Social Media Influencers.)
Note how the growth in the Libera graph parallels the drop in the Freenode graph: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php
Many IRC users connect to a modified version of Leenode every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of Leenode which is widely used today is often called "IRC", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the Leenode network, develope^Wpurchased by Andrew "rasengan" Lee.
There really is an IRC, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. IRC is the protocol: the part of the system providing network connectivity between the users accessing it. The protocol is an essential part of a network, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete networking system. IRC is normally used in combination with Leenode: the whole system is basically Leenode connected via IRC, or IRC/Leenode. All the so-called "IRC" servers are really servers of IRC/Leenode.
Technically, if I understand who you are referring to, that other person is a claimant to the position of head of the royal house; Unlike the line of claimants Lee is in, that line does not assert that the monarchy either still exists or should be restored. There waa another restoration claimant, but IIRC she passed without a designated heir, and no pretender has arisen with a claim through hers.
When I say random, what I mean here is that - while they're biological descendants of a previous monarch locking in some component of genetics - humans are enormously varied so what you actually get isn't so different from if you stole a random newborn baby. Fat, tall, slow-witted, ugly, it's out of everybody's hands. They didn't ask for the job (you might want to at least make it possible for them to decline - if they feel they cannot do it, but this decision must be strongly discouraged and irreversible) but it's not onerous and somebody needs to do it.
I think it's actually desirable for a country to find themselves a monarch, giving said monarch of course absolutely no actual power whatsoever, and some merely ceremonial duties. The people get a symbol, untainted by the day's grimy politics and the politicians can get on with something useful.
Now, would Andrew Lee make for a halfway decent King of Korea? It seems dubious, but unlike running Freenode it wouldn't come with any actual power. However the big problem, as with Freenode, is whether people accept him. If the Korean people recognise Lee as King, why not?
What makes you think they do?
The Joseon dynasty, which Lee claims to be the heir to, never ruled over modern South Korea. It fell out of power when Korea became a vassal state to Japan in 1910, and was no longer extant when South Korea regained independence in 1945. The last member of that dynasty died without issue; to claim that a distant relative of his is now the "king of Korea" is a distinctly minority viewpoint.
It already casts doubt on what legitimate claim Yi Seok could have on the Imperial Throne - the matter was not resolved only because monarchy is dead in Korea and nobody gives a damn any more, and people kinda feel sad that these imperial descendants went through so much tragedy and struggles in the last century, so we just politely nod, in the same way we would talk to our grandma suffering from dementia.
But some guy who grew up in America crashing a family reunion and claiming he's the inheritor of the family house because he met grandma once and got her to sign some document? Lol, nice try.
I was also banned and Klined, but I am not sure this was a free node action...
I was immediately able to reconnect to a different freenode server. And have not been bothered since. It definitely feels like a rouge operator just banned everyone on their node.
However despite this happening several days ago, there is no statement from freenode, so IDK.
But I agree, it's a bit of needless drama, especially when continuing on Freenode has shown to be untenable.
It would save both staff and users a lot of time from having to re-register accounts, channels, and projects/communities.
> if the users aren't connecting to the network?
I don't understand this part, sorry.
Fundamentally there was no viable way to get permission from the freenode user base for that in a way that was morally acceptable.
(I'm sure there were legal reasons too but I don't believe the question ever got as far as that being relevant)
The reasoning I heard was that the DDoS was triggered by someone getting upset about something that happened in a file-trading channel, and decided to DDoS the entire network as a result. After being offline for so long from the attack, DALnet admins wanted nothing to do with that kind of bullshit again and just purged it all. I really can't say that I blame them.
fuckin’ bye.
Among much else, he’s consistently a voice of patient sanity.
"Leenode" really is trying hard to burn itself to the ground.
The former has PRIVMSG (message) statistics which show that Libera Chat is considerably more active than freenode despite having less total users (for now, the crossover point is predicted to be the 26th and it's been moving closer and closer for days).
Until the IRC scene settles down a bit, I’m out. IRC is painful enough as it is.
People are often petty, mean spirited, and act irrationally. To throw your hands up and say “hey it was a mistake!” Without further reflection on the intention and purpose of an action is setting yourself up for failure.
This does not mean do not be charitable. This means don’t be lazy and rely on a poorly formed quote as an axiom to live your life by. Dig deeper.
But that individual will either way land on my "observe a little more carefully"-list which might give me more data to decide if they act maliciously or just incompetently.
What isn't successful at all is when you constantly suspect all others are doing everything for the most evil reason possible. Because this is really not the case in pracise and also has a cost that you need to carry.
Edit: although in this example one could argue explaining it by incompetence alone will need some major mental gymnastics.