Police are a necessary part of modern civilization. Full stop. If they have no repercussions for bad actions, then implement them.
It really isn't that complicated.
That's the problem. I don't think demonizing the other 99.9% of officers is the solution.
Various forces have little internal secret rituals in which they all collude in murder. Above we have https://openvallejo.org/2020/07/28/vallejo-police-bend-badge... ; there's another example from NYPD: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23525224
Doctors very rarely turn out politically to defend the malpractice of other doctors.
It's still unclear to me how a small town officer, hundreds of miles away, is guilty for the crimes of people he has nothing to do with.
None of them would have faced charges without months of national protests! That's why there's a problem! And I don't just mean the others that were there, all eight hundred Minneapolis PD officers are to some extent complicit.
Protests are great. Let's protest more and get changes made. But protesting against police injustice doesn't mean demonizing the entire profession.
Meanwhile a reality check for you: https://twitter.com/ProfessorPenis/status/140430555390457036...
"the cops showed up with bear mace and rubber bullets for the protesters. THE PEOPLE administered aid. THE PEOPLE apprehended the driver. the cops did nothing but antagonize the crowd of people that were almost murdered."
Sure, but how many? How much is the right amount. I hear the same said about our military, but it's degrees. Should we double the amount of money we spend on police? Triple? What's enough? Do we have too much now? There are lots of indications to me that it's turned into a make-work program.
>Police are a necessary part of modern civilization. Full stop. If they have no repercussions for bad actions, then implement them.
The unions are too powerful, the profession is too corrupt. Police "self regulate," and insiders who try to bring light to corruption typically get punished. It's too hard for the political process. All the while, the citizenry continues to get robbed, beaten and killed. Honestly the best thing to happen to the citizenry is phone cameras.
>It really isn't that complicated.
Maybe you should give it some more thought.
Less per capita than pretty much any wealthy city or suburb has.
More per capita than Detroit.
We all see the kind of trouble people with no real pressing crap to do can cause with an HOA at their disposal. So I figure we should make sure the people with a badge and a gun are substantially more busy than that.
Nobody wants to work in an overworked department but I don't see a way to keep police from harassing people unnecessarily other than making sure the department is small enough there's enough "real crime" to go around.
Right now, this doesn't happen, so you mostly get the corrupt tribalism stuff. But demonizing the police profession will guarantee that thousands of reasonable, well-meaning people will never become police officers.
> Maybe you should give it some more thought.
I have given it plenty of thought. I, along with pretty much anyone that actually has lived in crime-ridden areas, thinks that the idea of abolishing the police and demonizing officers is completely absurd.
The worst part is that the people with the loudest voices won't face any of the repercussions. Instead, it'll be the poor, because they aren't rich and social media savvy. Actual working class people are too busy working to be tweeting all day long about politics.
It depends on the jurisdiction. When I was in college, being a cop required a college degree. A couple of my colleagues became police. I don't know if that's still standard in major cities.
>But demonizing the police profession will guarantee that thousands of reasonable, well-meaning people will never become police officers.
Maybe. I think abusing citizens guarantees that the police will be demonized. We're currently in a downward spiral and it's only fixable by changing the status of the police.
>thinks that the idea of abolishing the police and demonizing officers is completely absurd.
That's a red herring. I never said that and in fact I explicitly said it's a matter of degree. That's not a good faith argument. You're arguing with an imaginary person in your head, not me.
And where is the bottom of the spiral? When police are completely hated by everyone, everywhere? You'll only get the absolute worst people to be police officers, as I said in my initial comment.
> You're arguing with an imaginary person in your head, not me.
I'm arguing against the idea that demonizing the police is an effective tactic.
I don't think it's a tactic, I think it's a reaction. If some gang beats your ass or robs you, you aren't gonna go around saying how deep down they're really good at heart, or they were just having a bad day.
Dude, people are having their lives ruined on a whim. It's not just the big stuff you see on the news, it's constant and in almost every department.
Source? Any statistics? You're telling me that every one of the 800,000 police officers in the United States is a gang member that beats citizens on a regular basis?
Another bad faith argument. I said it happens in almost every department.
Here's some videos captured all over the country of police willfully and knowingly violating people's civil rights.
Are you sure? Lots of causes for crime (i.e. poverty) can't be solved by arresting or shooting people. I am convinced that part of the reason police reform is so difficult in the United States is that most people have never questioned neither the history of American policing (which started as slave patrols in many states), nor the necessity for heavily-armed police at all.
> If they have no repercussions for bad actions, then implement them.
This is not so easy, when both of the parties with political control in the U.S. receive donations from the prison industry...
EDIT: Lastly, in reference to your original point, the argument that police officers are being simply "demonized" is missing the bigger picture. Police aren't individual actors - they protect each other, even when they have crossed a line. And it's all by choice.
If you actually look at the responses from people who live in high-crime areas, the data is clear. Virtually no one wants less police. Most want more.
I trust that more than activists with explicit political messages written in their manifestos.
> Police aren't individual actors - they protect each other, even when they have crossed a line. And it's all by choice.
This is largely due to systemic problems with unions, etc. Still unclear to me how calling a beat cop obscene words or having an ACAB attitude is going to solve that issue.
Anyways:
The fact that most modern countries have police is not evidence that police departments are necessary.
In addition, the article is about the American police, which are notorious for their history of racial profiling, cover-ups, and numbers of civilian shooting deaths every year. Does most modern countries having police mean this is justified behavior?
If you could, please provide a link to a survey or study indicating that people who live in "high-crime" areas want more police.
And even if they did, that doesn't change the reason for the widespread backlash against police in the United States. It's not simply people "demonizing" a profession (which again, people choose to work in).
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racia...
The data indicates that people want more accountability and reform. Which is exactly what I am arguing for.
> It's not simply people "demonizing" a profession (which again, people choose to work in).
Who cares if they chose to work in it? It's a necessary part of a functioning state. You act as if someone choosing to be a police officer means they deserve to be demonized. Please, let me know how that attitude is going to lead to any solutions.
As for the second part: someone simply choosing to be a police officer doesn't mean they should be demonized. Complying with the "blue wall of silence" by refusing to take an active stand against police misconduct, however, I believe warrants public backlash. The thing is, far too many officers are content to not say anything. And that is a large part of why they have seen more backlash recently.
Agreed there.