Comment by emptysongglass | Hacker News Reader

Comment by emptysongglass | Hacker News Reader

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I don't know about this one. Sometimes it's important to take a principled stand. I was at a stocks company for all of two weeks, hired by a former friend. The very first day I was told not to email the security team directly and that all my emails from then on must be approved by my team lead. Within a week, I was told to lie to the security team. I spent most of those two weeks either in meetings or as a glorified page.

I really felt abused, devalued, and a tool for the shitty ethics of the corporation. So one day I pull my team lead and the other lead into a Zoom meet and unload and quit. I get myself on LinkedIn, canvas a few available jobs and within two weeks get a new job. In the interviews I made it crystal clear that I valued transparency and that I would not be forced to lie to anyone. Turns out that's one of their cultural pillars (transparency is an entire slide in their slide deck).

I have a manager I can honestly engage with. He knows what happened at the last company and he values that I spoke up.

These principled stands are not for nothing. We have to be able to believe in our own ability to have a social impact, however small. Shutting up and inoffensively walking away just buttresses shitty people (or shitty corporations, which are just egregores that have been hijacked by shitty people).

To attempt to reach synthesis, I would say it could be valuable as a therapeutic exercise for yourself. However, my own experience is that choosing to vote with your feet doesn't really effect change that often. I've done it twice and while it felt good, life just kind of went on at the places I left behind.

The remaining people/mgmt will either do nothing, see it as a squeaky wheel thankfully now being gone, or maybe even add "we need to do something about attrition" to quarterly goals but not actually change anything meaningful.

So even if you get past the "oh they were just disgruntled" justifications, I find that companies are more likely to add ping pong, beer fridays, or even bump compensation before significantly trying to change the culture.

This is not good advice for most people. You should always leave on good terms regardless of how much you hate a job. As an employee you often don’t know the constraints or risks of a project so you can’t make a firm judgement on ethics or transparency. It’s a small world and you’ll likely run into former colleagues again or rely on them for a reference (even without your knowledge). Under game theory there is no advantage with being a being a difficult leaver.

Telling the uncomfortable truth plainly is a reward, a grace to someone. Why would give this favour to a bad employer? Don't lie but let them sort out why you (and other valuable people) left. Find a friend to vent to.

Because that's not compassion. The mercies we offer are chances for redemption. My team lead was young and inexperienced. I hope, with wisdom, he learns that telling the truth maximizes good outcomes.

Exactly - it's a judgment call.

When the compassion & effort of providing the info looks like it may possibly have a good effect, and is likely to be reasonably safe (e.g., minimal retribution/fallout effects, and is delivered with kindness - it can be good for all.

But one should first consider the consequences. Sometimes it really is best to just get away while the getting away is good.

Sure, that's a nice thing to share with people. But im not sure you should give such favour to a (bad) company.

It's our duty to our fellow human beings to construct a world we all want to live in. That can sometimes mean pushing back on bad behavior when it occurs. The only way we get a world that respects human dignity and values honesty is by holding each other accountable for our actions.

Game theory has no ethical compass. I can't think of a worse instrument to apply to human society.

I appreciate this advice, and generally agree, but game theory doesn't take externalities into account. If your employer is particularly toxic and hiding it, a noisy exit might bring extra scrutiny that could help other people who stay with the organization, though maybe not. Plus, sometimes the previous employer makes leaving on good terms impossible, like if your employer is being criminally investigated for tax fraud.

You also don't know who your boss knows or who you'll run into again. Burning bridges is satisfying but I'm sure I was turned down for at least one job based on the circumstances under which I left. Even though it was all supposed to be confidential.

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