Catalytic Converter Theft
sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com
sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com
Figuring out how to park on a hill to deter cat theft, buy security nuts for wheels to avoid wheel theft, using special security nuts for one's bike parts to avoid bike component theft (not to mention having to find indoor bike parking because brazen daylight bike theft just seems to be tolerated now) are the sort of tricks one learns to adapt to, but when you visit a place like Japan, Singapore, or Norway, all of this stuff makes you realize how dystopic things have gotten in the US.
Not saying that no country is without flaws, but the little "quality of life hacks" one must do to be safe in the US don't make up for things descending as far into chaos as they have.
I live in a city that most of HN would turn up their nose at. It's nothing like what people from the west coast describe as the status quo there. And it's not some city in a red state that spends big bucks on law and order either.
The city they moved to is hours from am airport. Smack dab nowhere.
They didn't find it dangerous at all. To the contrary people there were extremely welcoming ... Very neighborly. They could leave their door unlocked and not be bothered.
The occasional (and I mean occasional) theft was big news and the guy was caught
Far cry from getting our house vandalized with gang graffiti
> In 2017 Portland ranked third. Now it has dropped to 66th out of 80: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2021/06/12/portland-...
I don't own security nuts, or special locks for my bike, or have ever had my home/car broken into despite not even knowing where my house key is at this point and never locking my car.
I don't understand the comparison to the other countries, either. Are you saying they don't have petty crime?
In non-urban areas in the US things are better for sure, but you still have to deal with other things like having complete asshole neighbors that you really can't do anything about because small quality of life crimes like partying every night with loud music is not a crime.
If you move to rural areas this goes down even further, but then you give up a lot of amenities.
The size of the city isn't the issue here. There is definately a correlation between size and crime, but that's not the real issue - what it is I don't know though.
I live in a mid-sized European capital (bigger than Lisbon), and it's one of the safest places I've ever lived. I could probably leave my car running, with an expensive camera on the dash, while going to get a coffee, and everything would still be there when I get back.
Compare this to some Italian cities I've been to - which are smaller - where I feel lucky all four wheels are still there when getting back (locking wheel nuts are easy to break btw). I lived in Rome for a while and if you left something that even looked like it could contain valuables on show, you'd come back to a broken window.
So all of Norway (rural and urban areas together) had a higher per-capita rate of bike theft than New York City (which is all urban).
[1] http://www.sykkeltyveri.no/bicycle_theft.html [2] https://www.bicyclehabitat.com/articles/security-pg80.htm
Locked bikes are stolen in broad daylight in front of grocery stores and at schools. It's probably not as bad as SF, but it is still an issue in the suburbs.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1MveHv1lTVBzdM5VYZkcBQ/vid...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opo3OuUae5w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UNvEcR_jM8
Even when people point out how those "other countries" may tax you like crazy (which is only half true), the amount of time wealth you get back is significant, e.g. grade-school kids commonly commute to and from school by public transit where I live now (although sometimes with a chaperone if they're too young) and women go running at night in the relatively unlit park near my house, which I never saw where I lived in the US (even in relatively safe burbs). You also don't really have to own a gigantic money-sucking vehicle that you have to worry about insuring, parking, damaging, etc, in most European cities either.
One of the reasons I decided to sell that car was the daily anxiety of it getting broken into.
Hardly unique to the US
Buy a bike worth less than the lock.
The nice thing is that when that bike inevitably breaks, the city's underworld provides an efficient and free bike disposal service
Can you explain this one?
Hopefully the claim doesn't cause your premiums to increase in a meaningful way at renewal time.
Two theft claims won't raise his premiums.
The other two thousand thefts in the general vicinity will.
You should have to have the tittle for the car to bring a converter in, since it’s a federal offense to remove them.
The same reason they scrap the mountains of other used non-working parts they generate.
The "Mechanics License" is an informal certification that all reputable technicians in the US employ and is widely recognized. It's a form of de-facto licensure that's easily recognized at a glancing distance, and serves to ensure that a mechanic is not going to leave on a moments notice, without at least bolting a wheel on. Instead, he or she will tell the foreman or whomever's name is on the sign, likely to call a tow truck for Friday.
It goes like this: Once a young apprentice lube tech graduates from Harbor F. University, an unusual ritual occurs in most mechanic's shops where a large, diesel, truck with a lift gate and a Square terminal approaches.
A nondescript individual emerges from the truck, (slowly, as to not alarm anybody who has a pending tab) where our young acolyte is soon taken gingerly by the hand and ushered onto this mysterious conveyance.
Seven or Eight hundred dollars later, the young, oily apprentice emerges holding a shiny, new, silver gun and possibly a ratchet and a t-shirt or pocket protector.
Most seasoned veterans will recognize this as their Mechanic's License. It's good for brake jobs, mostly.
If you foul up to many times in the shop, they call the MAC or Snap-On guy who will gun it in his diesel and demand full payment for the impact tool and ratchet. They usually get to keep the shirt though, because, yuck, you know?
Scrapyards already need licenses (permits). Adding licensing requirements will just result in the people with licenses buying from the thiefs. It's just another middleman in the chain.
If anything it makes the problem worse because scrapyards often do turn away obvious thieves. A mechanic showing up with ten legit converters and forty stolen ones he bought off the thief gives the scrapyard plausible deniability. Furthermore it moves the illicit transaction outside of a legit commercial establishment and to wherever the thief and the mechanic care to meet.
It's already acknowledged that without enforcement against the people who are actually cutting the cats off regulatory requirements just displace the problem and shift the profit around.
Being a mechanic doesn't require a license although running the commercial establishment generally has some permitting requirements.
Lets think about this situation in programming terms. "Fixing this exploit will just result in the people finding another bug to exploit".
Well... yeah. That's the point. You don't necessarily want to stop all crimes (I mean, you do, but that's just unreasonable). Everyone is happy with simple deterrence: making crime harder to do and harder to logically manage.
And you keep fixing the law until the criminals / unwanted behavior is finally fixed. You gotta start somewhere, much like you gotta start fixing code exploits if you want to fix the security in your software.
1) the mess that is DRM, whether for software or media, and
2) to the point of 10-step windows activation (including phone calls and having to reinstall because one version only takes retail keys and another only takes oem keys and another only uses network auth), and
3) video games that try and re-authenticate between every frame of play
And tons of other "fixes" that just punish users and don't really deter bad behavior.
Software is bad enough; we shouldn't need to authenticate our exhaust system before recycling it.
The answer is mitigated risk via insurance and prevention, not a preemptive policing of all privately owned items of value.
I am quite skeptical that this is true.
If my eyes could roll in a complete circle they would.
Nobody who is parting out cars (resulting in a decent number of legitimately owned cats lying around to scrap) is bringing in the title because cheap junk often changes hands without a title and if not you gave the title to the junkyard in order for them to take the bare shell without you cutting it up.
And how is the scrap yard supposed to figure out which cat matches which title?
(the other guy covered the mechanic use case so I won't)
I think this is done with bikes in a lot of places.
So many scrap yards are out of business in our area now too, I don't get where people are taking them to. Maybe people are taking them out of state to where people don't ask questions.
I suspect with Catalytic Converter thefts, the CATs are small enough and light enough to be shipped abroad
They were eventually caught with container loads of cat's on their way to Europe.
And then you sell it to an actual rhodium mine who just so happens to be particularly productive that month.
Surely its easier to keep an eye on all rhodium mines, rather than trying to keep an eye on all scrap metal yards.
There must be limited facilities with the ability to extract and purify the rhodium content.
For the same reason that they don't shut down the pawn shops buying stolen goods right across the street from the payday loan place.
Because it requires actual police work, and because the people running them are 'local businessmen' with pull.
It's particularly concerning because some folks are beginning to take matters into their own hands[1].
1. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/man-accused-...
What would you do is if somebody was taking $1500 of yours along with your ability to provide for yourself for several days while your vehicle is out of commission?
(Or is it only when the government does that through civil asset forfeiture that you have a problem with it? Two can play at this game, you know.)
Remember, “call the police” isn’t an option.
No straw man, it was in the referenced article, which one might assume to be the context of your comment. But if you’re just making a random, out-of-context statement, you’ll have to allow that others are keeping up with the conversation.
Ideally the police would crack down hard on theft to prevent individuals needing to deal with it.
I'm not condoning theft but CA state policy is a large part of why this issue hurts as bad as it does.
But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your ancestor's gravestones??
Federal law requires the catalytic converters. Everyone is definitely better off for them.
Around here they're ~1hr of shop labor plus the cost of the cat (the latter being like $50 for an aftermarket cat up to a few hundred for an OEM cat (though there's a few vehicles with oddly expensive ones) with the 50-state cats always costing an integer multiple more.
>But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your ancestor's gravestones??
What part about "sniffs withing spec at the tailpipe" was unclear?
https://www.walkerexhaust.com/products/light-vehicle/catalyt...
It won't sniff within spec at the tailpipe without the catalyst.
> what cat you put on what as long as it sniffs within spec
Cali cats are often more $ but, where in the USA is there a $50 catalyst? More over, which shop charges less then $100/hr labor?
The down stream cat cleans up the photosmog producing tailpipe emissions.
California learned how horrible the smog is, we knew about the causes almost a hundred years ago. Letting people install mystery cats, possibly made from real cats, is going back to the era of "west side story"
Don’t know how true that is, or what the effect on price would be, but your reply didn’t seem to fit with how I understood the post.
California certifies the cats so that they ensure they are created well enough to last a while. They don't want a cat installed that works for a couple of days, just long enough to pass the smog dyno test and then who cares. It's probably excessive, but the smog was so bad, I can't help but empathize.
You can totally do that janky work and it will "sniff within spec at the tailpipe". Soon, the substrate melts in the cat because your check engine light throws P0125 next week because your car is in open loop from your coolant temp sensor malfunctioning and you are too cheap to go fix because the emissions check isn't for 3 months. It's just the engine coolant temp sensor, that doesn't cause global warming, right?
People want to get cheap cats because they don't see the value proposition in driving the photochemical smog towards zero, or they misunderstand the difference between the emissions check (ECU monitors provide this) and the smog check (the standalone dyno "moving road" load test) or mischaracterize all this "bullshit" to be about "funding" and "global warming" which they are motivated to reason is fake or whatever.
For further information, acquire California's CARB cert document CALIFORNIA EVALUATION PROCEDURES FOR NEW AFTERMARKET CATALYTIC CONVERTERS[0]
Peruse (e)(3) also sections (A) and (B) to learn of the age requirements. They require of cats that they work for 5 years.
Sections (e)(4), (A) (B) and (C) describes how they should function including fuel economy considerations (appreciated, given prices) and how they must be securely installed in order to prevent failures during the time period.
(e)(5)(A) and (B) outlines the procedure for ensuring they function into the required life of the device. They require the cat to be aged until they cause the MIL (check engine light) in order to verify the quality.
This is hardly affectatious testing. But hypothetically, if you were really hurting, I'd mail you a 50-state cat and then sleep at night.
[0] - PROCEDURES: https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermktcat/amcat_proc_2017.pd...
The cheapo cat doesn't have many precious metals in, and barely is doing its job. The sniff test done at the annual inspection doesn't typically test for all types of gas. So probably the cheapo one might 'pass the test' but still be far from meeting the law.
Either that or the makers of cheapo knock-off catalytic converters have some amazing R&D that even the OEM's can't figure out...
You're missing the point: new CA-legal catalytic converters cost 200-400% the price of 49-state legal ones because of the CARB certification. Most vendors won't even ship a new 49-state cat to a CA address, and selling used ones is technically illegal.
This isn't about cat vs. no cat. It's about CA creating a lucrative black market while simultaneously strictly requiring cats be kept in good working order via regular smog checks.
If the smog checks are worth a damn it shouldn't be necessary to certify the catalysts; if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test.
CA is fundraising here, and it's no doubt a contributing factor in catalyst theft within the state.
>if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test.
The vehicle ECU monitors the exhaust composition before and after the first catalyst. Downstream, the performance is not monitored by the computer. afiak the ECU doesn't have the capability to monitor nox and hydrocarons directly. The reason for this is that a cheap, reliable oxygen sensor is employed for monitoring.
Maybe it's possible to add that regulation federally.
49-state legal, direct-fit: $118 https://www.ebay.com/itm/253120020746
CA-legal, universal: $776 https://www.ebay.com/itm/304044103436
CA-legal direct-fit: $1048 (!) https://www.ebay.com/itm/174087409201
> The vehicle ECU monitors the exhaust composition before and after the first catalyst. Downstream, the performance is not monitored by the computer. afiak the ECU doesn't have the capability to monitor nox and hydrocarons directly. The reason for this is that a cheap, reliable oxygen sensor is employed for monitoring.
I don't see what any of this has to do with smog tests, and it's not even accurate for all vehicles (pre obd2 has just a single narrow band o2 sensor before the cat) but this is completely off-topic. The tests shouldn't rely on the vehicle's systems for measuring emissions, it just creates more opportunities for fuckery.
CA smog tests use their own emissions monitoring equipment and have already employed rolling roads to put the vehicles through varying loads during the test.
>I don't see what any of this has to do with smog tests, and it's not even accurate for all vehicles (pre obd2 has just a single narrow band o2 sensor
You mentioned the smog tests, saying if the vehicle can't measure them they aren't worth a damn
>If the smog checks are worth a damn it shouldn't be necessary to certify the catalysts; if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test.
Thats why it is not off-topic.
No cars monitor for the smog gasses. That's why Cali uses a special sniffer and a dyno to run a load test. In order to accomplish their stated goal of reducing pbotochemical smog, they must employ a dyno to test under load to monitor the production of nox and hydrocarbons out the tail pipe.
The oxygen sensors pre-obd2 were never used in any state for emissions, In my state we did a 2 speed idle test on a dyno which is being retired currently as all required vehicles are now exempt from this test.
We still are running oxygen sensors for engine management in every car. They do not sense any smog gasses.
- check engine light
- fault codes
- readiness monitors
its a legislative joke.
In EU even a 20 year old bmw e36 cat still goes for ~$1K, because we actually test emissions.
I bought that ebay cat last year after my cat was destroyed in a U-joint failure when the prop shaft impacted it at speed.
It is not empty, and the car passes a CA sniffer test with flying colors using it.
It is pretty cheaply constructed though, thin walls, and the ID seemed a bit smaller than stock so not great for power.
The cheap ones are less resilient as you noticed. When hydrocarbons (such as from blowby or imperfectly metered fuel) hit the substrate it works against the catalyst chemistry and the catalyst produces combustion clearing it up. But this skyrockets the temperatures, damages or melts the substrate reducing its effectiveness using up the substrate. There is a lot of expansion and contraction in a 1000-degree cat, failing ones can double that, so the poor bonding techniques will turn it into a rattle can fast.
Thin walls, less substrate, and poor bonding lead them to fail prematurely.
Good luck.
[0] https://www.designnews.com/stub/we-make-it-simple-how-honda-...
[1] https://jalopnik.com/when-honda-gave-gm-one-of-historys-most...
However, the first article mentions leaded gas as its upside, which is abhorrent, causing me to literally tremble in fear.
I'll restrain myself from any analysis as I'm unfamiliar with this technology. Very interesting, thank you.
Edit: a fairer example would be a ford focus - one of the most popular cars in the uk. £200 aftermarket main cat, £70 aftermarket pre-cat.
Glad they busted up a theft ring but this sounds like a moral hazard, assuming they’re keeping the money.
Also hybrids are more targeted for cat theft because they have more of the metals than normal cars to compensate for frequent engine stops and starts from cold.
Our new car came with installation of a catshield. When talking to various autobody places, they were skeptical it would matter because if they'd cut out the catalytic converter, they could just cut out the shield. It would be nice to see if they had data on this, but I haven't seen any (I even asked our insurance agency if they knew of any analyses on it but they said they didn't).
If you use stainless or something it will really piss them off. Aluminum will deform, frustrating cutting attempts. Mesh will block access just as easily, maybe go for a stainless mesh so its really annoying to cut through and bank the weight reduction/cooling benefits.
If you use a grinder, the abrasion will take a lot longer as you have to clear both spots where you would like to cut.
If you use a sawzall aka reciprocating saw, the blade has to have totally clear movements or else it will flex and slow down.
If you use a torch it goes quicker, but the set up and hauling the tanks is not easy, torches are fiddly, especially if not properly maintained, the smoke is poison, and theres fuel lines down there to boot.
Unpleasant. They'll just curse and roll onto the next mark.
EV battery packs are certainly serial numbered and traceable, but these guys will just pivot to breaking up packs and selling cells or whatever.
I'm sure electric cars are being, and will continue to be, stolen, parted out, etc. But battery theft won't look quite like catalytic converter theft as batteries are much heavier and aren't as easily accessible. Check out the video of a catalytic converter theft posted by another commenter in this thread [0]. The thief slides under the SUV at the 1:37 mark, does some cutting from about 2:00-2:14, then slides out with his prize around 2:24. In and out in less than a minute - no need to jack up the vehicle (SUVs and trucks are often already high enough), no need to enter the vehicle. And the catalytic converter weighs something like 10 pounds so he can just walk away with it. Stealing an 800-pound battery pack out of a Tesla would be a much more involved operation.
Is it just sort of size effects of California, or is there something like systemic cat theft that is a particular thing? The major cities are also there, but the crazy part to me was it is basically like, the entire central valley.
Frustrating because the van wasn’t worth replacing them. But surprisingly it was legal to replace them with straight pipe. Obviously ethically dubious, due to increased emissions. But a better option that scraping the vehicle prematurely and purchasing a new one.
Either way. I’d be looking at the demand side. The thieves aren’t melting them down, they’re flogging them for cash. Who’s paying cash for clearly hastily sawn off catalytic converters in bulk?