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Comment by theluketaylor | Hacker News Reader

I agree this was a open secret for decades, but I also think there are a large number of people who are learning about the horrifying things that went on at the residential schools for the first time. The stated policy was nothing short of ethnocide and if it takes "discovering" these issues to finally have the national conversation and action that is so badly needed then let's discover everything there is to know.

A problem cannot be fixed until everyone agrees there is a problem (see race relations in the US and climate change), so the more people who can be educated on what went on the better, because then we have a chance starting to heal (which will take generations).

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> A problem cannot be fixed until everyone agrees there is a problem (see race relations in the US and climate change), so the more people who can be educated on what went on the better, because then we have a chance starting to heal (which will take generations).

There will not be a “fix” because a “fix” for the victims or descendants of victims would require massive wealth transfers, mostly from people who were not alive or making decisions at the time. And that is not going to be politically popular.

> a “fix” for the victims or descendants of victims would require massive wealth transfers

My take on this, as a child of white immigrants, is that the Native Indian population would prefer something other than money. I think this kind of easy solution, just give them some money, is the type of solution that has been tried over and over without success. Even worse, we'll carve out some land and tell a tribe "this is yours" only to steal it back as soon as some commercial opportunity makes it valuable.

In the medium sized town I live nearby, large tracts of native land sit unused as undeveloped trash pits surrounded by condo and townhouse developments. How are natives expected to live a traditional life off the land when on one side there are supermarkets and strip malls and on the other side suburbs? Eventually many bands cave in and throw up their own gated communities which they lease to rich white retirees. One corner of the remaining land gets to stand for a local band community centre and maybe a small section of housing for a few lucky band members. My own perception is that corruption within the bands is rife, with chiefs and their family/friends benefiting from the rent-seeking and pretty much everyone else in the band losing out.

I think the harsh reality is that the kind of society and life that Native Indians dream of cannot be lived alongside modern industrial capitalism. It isn't just forestry, mining, oil and gas pipelines ruining their habitat. It is the very root of capitalist consumerist culture that is incompatible with the very conception of life they wish to maintain. You can't make that go away with money or by temporarily relocating them. It would require a cultural shift that would alter every aspect of Canadian life.

The funny thing is, we're all just jumping on to the global warming bandwagon. But the only communities I see taking environmental stewardship seriously are the Native Indians. They've been literally screaming at the top of their lungs about the destruction we are wreaking to this planet for decades. And instead of listening to them we just pressure them until they give in and accept whatever bribe we muster alongside a weak apology for past transgressions. And then they retreat into depression and alcoholism. It's a heart-breaking cycle and more money (or "wealth transfer") isn't the solution.

> the Native Indian population would prefer something other than money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bay_and_Northern_Quebec_...

> My own perception is that corruption within the bands is rife, with chiefs and their family/friends benefiting from the rent-seeking and pretty much everyone else in the band losing out.

Look far north. The village doesn't have clean water, but the local chief has two hummers and brand new ATVs on the front lawn. Guess where your tax money went...

The Mayor of Vancouver currently earns 171k annual - that appears to be enough for about 7 hummers, 4 after taxes[1]. Purchasing two hummers would cost you about 50k which is a very nice nest egg to have in the bank but, considering they may get a lot of use, probably not unreasonable. Most reservations have extremely poor roads and these cars might be shared in the community - I don't know if that's the specific case here but it's pretty common... lastly, cars aren't cheap and while hummers are expensive cars they aren't unreasonably priced, maybe having a hummer is this chief's personal luxury - we all want to have nice things, even when our lives aren't glamorous.

I think that the Mayor of Vancouver's salary is pretty fair considering the job they're doing, I can't speak on the specifics of this village but I am extremely suspicious of anyone who demands that people live in visible poverty to receive aide. The concept of "the welfare queen" originated with Reagan and was entirely born to utilize as a political tool - we can stop playing into stereotypes.

1. I am 100% not a car person - if anyone else knows a better assumed value than 24k please feel free to revise or correct numbers

What I meant was, a lot of tribal finance is opaque. A check is given but how it's spent is 100% decided by the local chief.

That can be a real problem for tribes, I agree. In my youth I worked with an organization for Haudenosaunee cultural preservation in the US and while the politics are a lot different there the status of tribes as nations means that there are a lot of weird power dynamics.

In particular this organization was opposing considerations of the Mohawk People to invite in outside investors that wanted to build casinos on reservation land - that's a hard decision to make and even harder when there is a single ultimate tribal representative that you can throw ten million dollars at without serious impacting long term financial expectations. The Mohawk Council of Chiefs in Akwesasne[1] represents a tribe with enough members, and historical precedent, that they benefit from and enjoy an actual government body, but many of these tribes are small enough or remote enough that a single member is vested with a lot of power and this will often go poorly. I don't think there's a really clear good solution here - it'd probably make sense to consolidate tribes into fewer regional bands but Natives are obviously pretty skittish about surrendering any of what little power of self-governance they have.

1. http://www.akwesasne.ca/about/

I hesitate to even comment given the divisive nature of the thread but…

Hummers cost north of $100k USD. Assuming the mayor of Vancouver’s salary is listed in CAD it isn’t enough to buy one after tax. Furthermore on that salary it probably wouldn’t be prudent to buy one at all.

Okay - so apparently I really don't know cars ;P

I'm personally a non-driver so I am quite clueless here. That said it does impact my understanding a fair bit since paying 24k for a car seems like a pretty nice price for a car (you can get used cars for thousands of dollars, but a new car is probably going to be well over 10k) but where there are definitely cheaper options - paying 100k is pretty ridiculous.

FYI for next time - a search for “Hummer MSRP” would have helped you out here.

Yea I was searching for hummer price and I think I ended up just getting prices for resale.

Ah, gotcha

> Look far north. The village doesn't have clean water, but the local chief has two hummers and brand new ATVs on the front lawn. Guess where your tax money went...

I'm not going to try justifying a Hummer, because I don't know what intrinsic value it holds in their circumstances. I have been to northern communities where expensive pickup trucks were the norm, for very good reasons. There are many parts of Canada where a car is basically useless. The communities are small enough that one can walk from end to end in a quarter of an hour, yet the roads leading to the town would be impassible to anything less than a decent truck (and even then are impassible to any vehicle at certain times of the year). That is before utility is taken into consideration. You won't get very far with hauling loads of firewood home and would not enjoy the trip to the dump with your household trash in a car. Owning a truck also makes more sense for the trip to the city, where virtually everything from food to furniture will be less expensive. Arguing that they should own inexpensive cars because it supports the suburban lifestyle of the south is even more tone-deaf than arguing that people in the suburbs should use public transit because it is sufficient for downtown residents.

> Look far north. The village doesn't have clean water, but the local chief has two hummers and brand new ATVs on the front lawn. Guess where your tax money went...

Source? I think this is a common argument and having lived among native reserves I have never seen it myself or seen reports of it. Feels like an urban legend crafted to justify not providing support, but willing to think differently if there’s evidence to support it.

"How are natives expected to live a traditional life off the land "

People of aboriginal heritage in Canada do not 'live off the land' as their ancestors did in neolithic conditions. Other than for some very specific activities like seal hunting etc.

"the kind of society and life that Native Indians dream of"

?? They definitely are not dreaming of this.

Or not in any different way that we often dream of maybe 'going fully organic / off the grid' - but we don't because we have regular jobs..

'What they want' is complicated. Definitely they want 'treaty rights' respected, but those are vague. They want certain municipal services (i.e. water) but it's really spotty - some places, water facilities are made for them, but they won't do the upkeep. In other very remote communities, it's exceedingly expensive. In others, private mining companies have polluted the water (the answer here should be easy though - the mining companies pay to fix the dam problem they created). There's also the problem of taxation and cost - my father pays $180/month for water for his tiny little flat in a small town because they live in a remote area. Municipalities, via taxes, pay for water treatment. So the question arises as to 'who the Federal/Provincial Government' will pay for, and who they will not.

There are very complicated band structures where by some band leadership positions are inherited and come with legal powers.

Some hereditary band leaders in BC who've maintained their 'titles' for centuries and who hold all of the power but have no support from the band members, and there's no democratic input, may decide to be 'against' a pipeline or some such thing - even as basically entire band/community themselves is 'for' it. The Canadian government is in a weird position they are forced to recognized the hereditary titles of the chiefs - which is democratically anathemic of course.

And it goes on like this. It's complicated.

I think I was sloppy in my comment and you linked two ideas that I didn't necessarily want to link. That is, I don't want to imply: "a traditional life off the land" and "the kind of society and life that Native Indians dream of" were the exact same thing. Nor would it be fair to suggest that everyone wants the same thing based on their heritage. I meant those ideas distinctly. That is, a traditional life off the land does not seem possible given the circumstances regardless of whether or not that is the kind of life some might desire.

What I wanted to combat was the assumption that the kind of "western values" that are represented by consumerism is what those communities are failing to achieve. It is the exact same kind of thinking that lead to residential schools in the first place. As if we give them enough money, give them education and health care then they'll finally integrate into our society. But if they don't want that life, if it isn't their dream to be successful western capitalists, it is hard to imagine how they can live alongside the western capitalists without constant tension. And accommodating any other alternative communities alongside our own isn't simply a matter of financing. That problem is distinct from any particular formulation of "alternative communities" including but not exclusive to "living off the land".

Basically, how can we allow Native Indians to form a distinct culture and identity when we constantly encroach on them and disrupt them. You can't pay that problem away.

Your comments are not at all sloppy; they are very well-written and well-taken, at least by this reader (and Canadian). I think you are correct in your analysis and your perspective.

The fact is, as Canadians we ought to feel ashamed of this. I know I do. When I feel shame, I want to make it go away. Our entire society has become adept at turning away and ignoring our past. But our task as citizens right now is to not do that. It's to grapple with the reality of what is very clearly a horrific injustice. It's to stop claiming the past is the past. The legacy of colonialism is alive and well in Canada and it is still actively destroying many lives.

There is no way to make this right. The only thing we can hope to do now is honour the dead, do our best to make amends to the living and carve out a new path forward.

" The legacy of colonialism is alive and well in Canada and it is still actively destroying many lives."

Canada is, and continues to be a Colonial project. This is an objective reality, not an ideological statement. That's just what it is. It was put in motion a long time ago and continues to be that.

While it may have some negative aspects, Canada is actually a beacon many positive ways - largely because of what the Colonialists have managed to create.

It's also not really true at all to say 'Colonialism continues to hurt people', because it's mostly just the opposite. All citizens of Canada live immensely higher standards of living than they would otherwise under the Colonial umbrella - including aboriginals.

Canada is one the top destinations for immigrants, and Canada is probably hands down the #1 place for 'easy integration'. Swedes try to help Syrians but it's hard for them. Syrians and others, tend to do consistently well in Canada because integration is more manageable. People 'get along' in Canada probably more so than anywhere, which is firmly Colonial manifestation.

Paradoxically, even for the aboriginals, of the 'solutions' ahead amount to ... 'more colonialism'. For example, the Federal government building for aboriginals their housing, and water facilities. The really successful hockey program that's getting young Quebec aboriginals to stay focused and in school. The extra effort on getting Aboriginal kids to finish school and the availability of post-secondary systems. Most of these measures look like they have the same intentions as the Canadian Government in 1900 - just not as draconian. They are all de-facto 'Colonialist' measures.

The political situation on many reserves is more of a hindrance than not and will require reform, which will probably take the shape of falling more under the Canadian legal norms, i.e. 'Colonialist'. Many tribes have 'elders' who's positions are hereditary, and they lord over the tribes, sometimes against their will like literal Monarchs. There are problems with allocating land ownership and control to individuals making housing formation and especially small business formation very difficult. No tax base -> no ability to collect municipal taxes -> no water facilities etc.. The lack of transparency and inconsistent management has meant there's a 'more than comfortable' amount of corruption on some reserves, with Government money going into the pockets of a few.

I should point out that it's very different in almost every situation. Different bands, reservations, locations - there's no specific pattern.

Some 'non colonialist' aspects include opportunities for local, more traditional governance, which definitely should be experimented with, for example, the RCMP (i.e. justice system) can relinquish power in certain areas (i.e. Manitoba) in the hopes that local, more tradition forms of governance may work out at least on the criminal side of the issue.

On the whole, for every 'traditional measure' of improvement, there will be a bunch of measures which are effectively Colonialist.

It's fair to point out that there are aspects of Colonialism which haven't been very good, on the whole it's been totally the opposite. The groups trying to misrepresent the term 'Colonialism' I think have serious ideological underpinnings. I think they should find a different word.

> While it may have some negative aspects, Canada is actually a beacon many positive ways - largely because of what the Colonialists have managed to create.

Canada is a positive beacon in many ways in spite of its origins as a colony, not because of them.

> All citizens of Canada live immensely higher standards of living than they would otherwise under the Colonial umbrella - including aboriginals.

What is "the Colonial umbrella" you are referring to here? Canada's standards of living are attributable to a number of factors, including an immense land area with plentiful natural resources, a highly industrialized economy, a robust system of law and government, etc. Like Japan, the UK, the US and the other G7 countries (only two of which were originally colonies).

Secondly, I challenge your assertion that the native peoples of Canada would have lower standards of living were it not for colonialism. On the contrary, I think the evidence is clear that colonialism has been an unmitigated disaster for indigenous peoples. Unfortunately we will never know what standards of living the indigenous peoples of North America might have achieved in the 21st century had Europe respected their sovereignty.

> Paradoxically, even for the aboriginals, of the 'solutions' ahead amount to ... 'more colonialism'.

I take your point in the sense that many of these measures are "interventions" in a sense; they are initiatives imposed (or presented) by the federal government. I think they are fundamentally different from the original acts of colonialism, however, in that they seek to confer rights, status and resources as opposed to taking those things away.

Where this goes beyond my understanding of the issues is in trying to determine who wants what, who speaks for whom, and so on...for instance you point out "problems with allocating land ownership and control to individuals". Of course that is problematic when, as I understand it, in many indigenous cultures the idea of owning land is considered absurd. It is, indeed, colonialist to insist on answers to questions like "who owns this land?" without considering that perhaps, no one does - and perhaps no one ought to.

"What is "the Colonial umbrella":

"Canada's standards of living are attributable to a number of factors, including an immense land area with plentiful natural resources, a highly industrialized economy, a robust system of law and government, etc." <--- Yes. The imposition and expansion of this into North America is Colonialism.

The expansion of education, language, justice, culture, industry, the economy, the political system, religion, and Enlightenment ideals - that is 'Colonialism'.

i.e. civilization (as we understand it).

The alternative, which was present before, is neolithic culture, which is how they would be living 'without colonialism'.

If there is a 'paternalistic' view it's that Aboriginals somehow don't want at least the advantages of 'civilization' which they benefit from tremendously.

Do you really think that Aboriginals would be happy and fruitful without hot water? Foraging for meals, living in tents and stick homes? No medicine, education, no effective social organization even at the tribal level?

Aboriginals want warm homes, cars and Televisions just as much as anyone else - and the material benefits require all the supporting systems of 'Colonialism'.

The 'situation' among Aboriginal communities is far better than it would be otherwise, they live at roughly the standards of the bottom 1/3 of Canadians. They have access to education, healthcare, homes, travel i.e. modernity in general - a relatively fair justice system - untold benefits - mostly provided to them for free (!!).

Their 'problems' are almost entirely local: drugs, alcohol, violence among themselves, and an unwillingness to participate in many of the things they'll need to do (i.e. jobs) if they want the material benefits of the system.

The current 'disequilibrium' is that they want access to modernity and all that comes along with it - without active participation in creating it.

You’re conflating colonialism with modernization. They are not the same thing. Of the G7 only two countries are colonies, which shows that nations (and the indigenous peoples of North America were indeed nations - engaging in treaties, sending diplomats to Europe, etc.) are able to modernize with being subjected to colonialism. It is absurd to claim that indigenous nations would not have modernized without the “benefits” of colonialism.

It is also absurd to claim that “aboriginals” lacked access to hot water until European settlers showed up. I think some reading about the accomplishments of the native societies of North America would be beneficial.

There could have been a fruitful and mutually beneficial exchange of ideas, technologies, ways of life, etc., between Western and indigenous nations when Europeans made contact with native Americans. Instead what took place was genocide.

> All citizens of Canada live immensely higher standards of living than they would otherwise under the Colonial umbrella - including aboriginals.

I mean, that was a typical argument in favour of slavery. After the apartheid ended in South Africa there was a pretty large movement of former slaves protesting about their lower quality of life and demanding a return to the previous status quo. We don't only consider standard of living when making moral judgements about structures of government.

It is the standard paternalistic European attitude. And the last vestige of justification remaining for residential schools so I'm not so quick to just let it slip. It's the analogy to a parent soothingly telling a child in tantrum: "You'll understand why I'm doing this when you're older". As if they should thank us for raising them out of their savagery.

I also reject your comparison to immigrants, like Syrians literally running for their lives from a civil war in their country of origin, to aboriginals who were living within their own land of origin and had this life thrust on them unrequested. The circumstances couldn't be any different. Immigrants make a choice of self-determination while aboriginals are being deprived of self-determination.

> The political situation on many reserves is more of a hindrance than not and will require reform, which will probably take the shape of falling more under the Canadian legal norms

On this we agree and it fits into the complexity of the situation. One area that most Canadians would find hard to stomach is that some traditional tribe hierarchies are patriarchal. It is a difficult balance to allow self-determination while also upholding concepts like universal human rights.

We've gone a bit deep here and I admit I'm pretty far out of my depth. In fact, the only real thing I'm confident on is that this issue is too complex to fix with money alone.

"I mean, that was a typical argument in favour of slavery. "

This isn't even anywhere near true.

First - Canadian colonialists did not, and do not, benefit from the labour inputs of aboriginal citizens. They were never some kind of advantage to Canadian development.

Second - that Canadians of Aboriginal descent live at considerably higher standards that the neolithic people they were, and would be otherwise - is unambiguously factual.

"aboriginals who were living within their own land of origin and had this life thrust on them unrequested"

They are living in homes, have cars and TV 'unrequested'?

We are 'forcing' them to do this? They couldn't just go ahead and live in huts and tents if they so chose?

How 'paternalistic' is it to contemplate that somehow Aboriginals really want to live as their ancients did, in skin tents and huts, with no hot water, no medicine, education or any of the advantages of material advancement?

In reality - they want all the same thing we do: homes, heating, hot water, grocery stores, cars, food, entertainment. They're just not organized enough to 'trade' services or labour to the point where we care to give them anything for it.

They want the material benefits of Colonialism for the same reasons we do.

So we end up mostly giving it to them.

I was going to say...

Op has a Pocahontas imagination of what most indigenous are like.

Most are like everyone else and want to live life, party, hang out with friends. Reserves have kfc and grocery stores. Some hunt but if you’re a white guy in northern / rural Canada you probably hunt.

What a weird take. Always a laugh to hear what the city liberal thinks of the world. So out of touch and delusional, but so confident.

It’d be like saying African Americans want to hunt wild game.

As an outside observer, I don't understand what action you think is needed? Weren't these schools abolished?

There still are massive levels of racism particularly in policing and the justice system. Kids are still dying - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/seven-youth-inque...

The schools are gone, but the damage remains. While most closed in the 70s, there were a couple that lasted into the 90s! and there are many living survivors who continue to suffer from the trauma they experienced.

The stated goal of the schools was to eliminate First Nations' culture and it was tragically highly effective. A culture doesn't recover from generations of ethnocide overnight.

> there were a couple that lasted into the 90s!

While true, I think this is generally misleading without context.

The federal government took control of the schools from the churches around 1970. By the mid-70s, control of most of them had been transferred to the band councils in some form or another, and a third of the staff at the schools had Indian status. By 1980, only 15 were still left operating.

It's really hard to find any actual information on _what_ the schools that remained open were like in the 90s as most easily discoverable documentation is about beginning to unravel the abuses that had occurred prior, but what little I've ever been able to find sounds like they continued to operate as a school (presumably because the community needed a school), not as an implement of cultural genocide.

This would seem to be backed up by some sources saying that some of the communities that housed the schools resisted their closure. Not that it's a particularly great situation, but it's likely that it was the only source of formal education available to them at the time and they didn't want to lose it, rather reform it. The current school situation on reservations is abysmal, so this is... understandable.

None of this is to try and discount the atrocities that occurred at the schools, but I like to think saying "They operated until the mid-90s!" is a bit sensationalist, implying that the kidnapping, experimentation, abuse and murder was occurring at the same time Seinfeld and Friends were airing. I think there's more than enough to be horrified at here without implying a worse situation which may lead some people to discount some of the actual atrocities.

That said, if you (or anyone) can dig up some information to refute any of this, I'm more than happy to hear it. I am genuinely interested and I have a lot of difficulty trying to find concrete information.

These are very fair points. I likely should have given some additional context on the later operations.

I will admit I was trying for some shock value since a non-Canadian outsider was asking. It's far too easy to think about the abuse as happening long in the past and therefore more of an abstract conversation. It's really a conversation about the ongoing trauma of survivors, some of whom are not actually that old.

There are many people still living who were teachers and administrators at these schools.

If we believe that this was genocide (and I think it's pretty obvious that it was), then they should be held accountable for their crimes.

The fact that they haven't been speaks volumes.

Ahh yes, generating a large righteous and hungry movement with no good ideas in place. What could possibly go wrong?

I'm sure there are initiatives and policy changes the govt is pursuing in this space. We'd do well to learn about them if we do truly care.

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