Funazushi: The fermented predecessor of modern sushi | Hacker News Reader

Funazushi: The fermented predecessor of modern sushi

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95 pointsmighty-fine60 comments

I think that almost every culture has this kind of food that is supposed to be super good to those who acquired taste but looks totally gross to outsiders. Japan has this half-rotten sushi and fermented soybeans, and then there's maggot cheese and notorious fermented herrings, etc.

In my experience the Poles seem to think of their pickled herring this way, but it's just genuinely tasty all of the three ways I've had it.

I don’t know about the Polish version but I assume it’s similar to the kind you get with onions and a sour cream based sauce in appetizing stores in NYC.

If so, I wouldn’t say it’s an acquired taste. It’s a bit fishy but even as a child I liked it.

> I assume it’s similar to the kind you get with onions and a sour cream based sauce in appetizing stores in NYC.

Quite possibly. It's not the same as various jarred herring in supermarkets (which is usually... okay.); my mother in law makes hers with oil, onions, cloves, and bay leaf and it's very much the same as what I had in Warsaw. There is another approach (which I haven't go the recipe for) that is sour and a little sweet and has sour cream and green onions (and sometimes raisins, in the northwest). Those are good and a little exciting because I have them less often, but I like the oil and onions and cloves kind better.

> If so, I wouldn’t say it’s an acquired taste. It’s a bit fishy but even as a child I liked it.

Yeah, I agree, which is why I'm a little amused at how much surprise and enjoyment "lubie śledzie" seems to prompt.

When we Dutch buy Hollanse Nieuwe (herring of this year) we get asked if we want 'ui en zuur erbij?' ('onion and sour with it?'). The sour are pickles. I wouldn't want my herring without either.

Maybe lutefisk counts, but I don't think so. Fermentation has to be done correct, else it is dangerous. That's where the gross feeling stems from; it has/had a purpose.

Maybe lutefisk counts

Lutefisk isn't fermented, and has a mild smell and tastes of unseasoned boiled white fish with a slightly 'off' aftertaste. While most people don't particularly like it, it is hardly off putting unless you find boiled fish in general off putting.

From conversations I've had with East Asians, I think many think of cheese in general as a pretty gross food.

Why? Is it the sharp taste, how its made, or something else?

I'd assume the mould is a deterrent.

SE Asia uses mould too. Eg tempeh.

Shoyu (soy sauce), sake, and miso are all made with mold (aspergillus oryzae) and are major components of Japanese cuisine, so no.

Shoyu and miso etc. are fermented, and the end result is all the consumer sees - the mould isn't there. My Japanese wife love all fermented Japanese food, but has an extreme aversion for mould of any kind, even in minuscule amounts. Her nose is hyper sensitive about the stuff. So no blue cheese here.. (she likes a lot of other types of cheese. She's not lactose intolerant, but in any case hard cheeses tend to be very low in lactose).

East Asians have a higher rate of lactose intolerance.

It's biological waste grown on cow extract. Pretty sure it's not that different from other gross-to-those-not-familiar-with-it foods, it's just that we're familiar with it.

An Asian friend once told me that when she came to America as a child and someone gave her cheese, she thought they were trying to poison her. I get the sense that that's not too far off from the common sentiment for those uninitiated.

Like anything it probably varies, especially by local culture. Source, method of production, smell, etc, as well as the particular product--there's significant variety to cheeses, not to mention dairy products generally. But one very general aspect described to me is the lingering milky mouth feel and aftertaste. That person didn't much like butter, either. I've enjoyed several East Asian analogs to cheese, like stinky tofu and natto; none are similar in that regard as they go down rather clean.

And don't discount the mental factor. I've eaten balut (the Vietnamese variety that is older and more developed), dog, live shrimp, fish gut soup, etc. Other than balut, which has a livery flavor (not to my personal taste, though it's more pronounced with duck than with chicken), the flavor and texture were never particularly foreign or distasteful, per se; the aversion was mostly mental and simply an artifact of cultural familiarity. The dog stew I ate was delicious, but near the bottom of the bowl, my appetite sated, disgust reared its head and I had trouble keeping it down. Later that day I learned my partner had the exact same experience. Fermenting and consuming the lactation secretions of herd animals is, on its face, kind of gross if it's not what you grew up with.

East Asians are the most lactose-intolerant humans. I assume that's a factor.

Africans are, as far I know. And it's the mouth-feel of cheese the Chinese hate.

Pizza is pretty popular in East Asia though.

And there's such a thing as hong Kong style cheese baked rice.

I mean it's 2021. When I was growing up Kraft singles were common. Today I can go to a supermarket and pick up a block of Gouda.

Also, I think there's degrees of lactose intolerance? I don't really take full cream milk as is anymore because of that but cream and cheese and lattes are fine...

Definitely degrees to it, and also for many people it does fluctuate over time depending on how much you help your guts keep feeding on lactose to keep the workers alive.

Interesting. In my experience, living in Japan and Korea, cheese is everywhere -- sometimes in dishes you wouldn't even expect. I wonder if age is a factor in your observations.

Both those countries also have sixty years of exposure to cheese through the US military presence, the change may be fairly recent and may be somewhat limited to areas foreigners are likely to go.

Cheeses (mostly processed cheese) are pretty common food (at least than funazushi) in Japan everywhere at least for 20 years. It seems that lactose in cheese isn't much high.

It depends on your level of lactose intolerance. I have a family member who is lactose intolerant, but can eat aged, hard cheeses.

An aged, hard cheese will have much lower levels of lactose than a fresh, soft cheese, to the point where it virtually disappears.

That can be checked by looking at "sugars" in the Nutrition Facts table: lactose is a sugar, and most cheeses do not have added sugar (well, at least "ordinary" ones). If the "sugars" row is at zero or "traces", that means all the lactose has been digested by the bacteria.

Making milk relevant for all ages is one of the main reasons for cheese existing in the first place.

I've lived in Japan for over a decade and definitely not in the foreigner bubble. Cheese is just ubiquitous...

Is it widely used in the countryside, like throughout Hokkaido?

I haven't been to the place, but I'm gonna assume cheese is a big thing there as well, considering 60% of all dairy products in the country are produced there.

I do have been there (I live in Aomori, so quite close), and it's exactly as you describe.

Honestly it's mostly just the Chinese (except those living nearer to Russia) who hate cheese.

"Cheese" in Japan tends to be mild, inoffensive "Kraft Singles" type processed cheese (in taste/texture, that is, actual form factors vary). Stronger tasting cheeses of any kind (sharp hard cheeses, white or blue cheese, etc) remain quite niche.

Japanese ”cheese” is not really cheese. You easily can’t find a cheese that would not be a single slice packaged in a plastic. The ”actual cheese” like sold in europe is harder and comes in actual blocks.

Funny, I was just talking about dairy in Asia in the thread about alcohol flush. At least in Taiwan, cheese is super popular. Wine and cheese charcuterie, cheese on dan bing, cheese tea even (albeit creme cheese). It's probably a generational thing though. Many young people here study abroad and are very international in their tastes.

I have always thought of these foods as "kept my ancestors from starving" foods. Things that were discovered by accident when people were starving and became a way have stored food to keep from starving in the future.

Salted fish in the same general approach as funazushi is still practiced in some Chinese cultures. I wonder if Chinese would find funazushi tasty.

> became a way have stored food to keep from starving in the future.

And mostly because no-one will eat them by choice, in seasons when they're not starving.

I am not sure this is correct, people ate raw fish and meat before any of the processing happened. So I would guess that sashimi was known way earlier than fermented fish.

Sashimi isn't sushi. Sushi literally means "sour rice". In the version of it I know (probably from a Good Eats episode), fish was "fermented packed in rice" (probably a gloss of this process) leading to... sour rice and fish. The modern practice of getting sour rice by mixing in some rice vinegar is an evolution of a much faster approximation of that dish.

Interesting. So Sauerkraut and Sushi have similar roots. Sauerkraut was also fermented in the old days. Now, vinegar is used, which btw kills any useful fermentation bacteria.

Don't know where you live, but here in the Bay Area there are several brands of naturally fermented sauerkraut that you can find in any decent grocery. Just looking in the fridge I see some Wise Goat and some Farmhouse. Very tasty and all naturally fermented!

I don't believe that's true.

Del Monte sauerkraut comes in a can (which is why I picked it as an example) and contains only cabbage, water, and salt:

https://www.delmonte.com/products/vegetables/sauerkraut/saue...

It's pasteurized of course, which kills off the beneficial bacteria, but it's still fermented to make it.

There are other pickled vegetables made with vinegar, including cucumbers, but fermentation is still the more common method.

If your Sauerkraut is not made through fermentation using lactic acid bacteria, you got a cheap knockoff.

Source: I'm German.

Agreed that it wouldn't be the same (am Dutch).

I have to admit that the lack of salt might actually make it healthier though.

> Source: I'm German.

Having lived in Alsace, I agree with your source.

I'm always reminded of the Karl Pilkington video whenever this is bought up. It doesn't seem very nice.

Very interesting, it's like a fish cheese! Looks good, I wanna try it some time.

You are welcome to have ALL of mine. I've had Swedish fermented herring, and not only did it smell awful, but I became disgusted with the Ammonia and H2S smell in my own mouth. The friend who had conned me into trying it then dumped it in the trash and his Swedish wife got upset because of the stench and made him take the entire bag of trash out at night when it was unpleasantly cold, wet, and windy. Turns out she's not a fan of Surströmming. I tried washing my teeth/tongue out with his expensive vodka and it certainly took enough shots to get drunk.

To be clear, I have no problem with any Blue cheese or even Epoisses. I don't love "stinky" tofu, but it doesn't bother me and I am somewhat charmed by durian. Fermented fish is in another league, and the small bones get stuck in your teeth.

Fish sauce is another kind of fermented fish. While it is definitely pungent and is disliked or an acquired taste for some, it isn't nearly as intense as what you describe and is loved by many. Southeast-asian-style fish sauce does not have an ammonia smell.

Perhaps not all fermented fish is the same. I doubt the Japanese one discussed here is similar to that Swedish dish, or has an ammonia smell.

> Fish sauce is a liquid condiment made from fish or krill that have been coated in salt and fermented for up to two years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce

As soy sauce which is fermented tofu (like stinky tofu), and fish sauce is to fermented fish, they are much more accusable than their source materials. Also, I'll note that a fish is often added to many traditional soy sauces in south Asia.

As author of the parent comment, I like both of those sauces and cook with them... but fermented whole fish (herring) is another kettle of fish entirely!

I've had pickled herring before, I find it very tasty. I also like Natto. I have a strong predilection towards food that tastes spicy, bitter, salty and/or umami. Sweet stuff is fine. I like Vodka, so cheers to that.

Natto is none of spicy, bitter, salty, or umami. It also doesn't have the pleasant sharpness of pickled herring or vodka. It is glue, in both texture and taste, but also in function. Based on how firmly it glued my mouth shut, I'm certain it could find more industrial uses. Truly more bizarre than you make it.

As author of parent: I don't mind Natto. It's a strong almost musty taste to me and the texture is hard to get used to. As a breakfast condiment, I'd much prefer Marmite/Vegemite.

Another fermented fish thing I will not eat again, Fish Candy from Vietnam. Many of the same smells and tastes, but combined with a slightly caramelized sugar coating on a stick.

I guess Surströmmings are not labeled “Miscellaneous hazardous material” for nothing!

1: https://image.itmedia.co.jp/l/im/nl/articles/1810/02/l_f1810...

I believe Icelandic fermented fish was one of the few foods Anthony Bourdain found revolting. Based on my own experience with Icelandic and Japanese approaches to flavor, I would bet Funazushi tastes better, though.

That would be hákarl, fermented shark:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1karl

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338198088_Surstromm...

A little easier to find would be some other dried fish, like Hoshi-karei 干しカレイ, dried flat fish. It definitely has a soft goat cheese feel to it.

sushi in kyoto was similar to this. some kind of fermented suhsi. it was ok, prefer the new tokyo style kind lol

If the sushi was served in pressed, compact slices, you likely had oshizushi ("pressed sushi"), which is is fairly common in the Kansai area around Kyoto. The fish used is typically lightly pickled, not full-on fermented, but it's definitely quite different from "regular" Edomae sushi.

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