> Here is a very efficient method for moving power: a copper cable.
Right, texas natgas producers should just run a copper cable directly to places like Singapore!
Right, texas natgas producers should just run a copper cable directly to places like Singapore!
They have no mention of what they are even going to sell the energy at, and no mention storage capacity (if any will be used at all) and not expected to come online for another 6 years.
We'll be able to learn more about it when they actually have an accepted bid from some one.
I think its because you missed
> ports
Other energy products are shipped on tankers: CL, NG.
Once they arrive at a certain country, they can be disbursed over roads and rail to plants; CI and residential alike.
Molten salt will vary depending on its heat capacity and delta_k above freezing point.
0.338048298841 MJ/liter for the typical NaNO3 KNO3 NaNO2 mixture (assuming a delta_k of ~300)
53.356955169699994 MJ/liter for something like CaCl2 45.5682%, MgCl2 54.4318% (Ionic halide, assuming a delta_k of ~1568)
In the future I expect even higher delta_k for molten salts.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas#Specific...
I think we can go ahead and rule that out as impractical given we're talking about temperatures which are high enough to melt steel.
I don't think steel will be used as the only form of confinement (certain kinds of ceramics come to mind can handle it now[0]), so agree to dissagree.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_ceramic...
Yes, if needed ("to the other side of the world" could very well mean from AU to SG, and not USA to SG [although that happens now in some cases to meet demand]). LNG and CL are shipped across the world so that it can make steam to make electricity now (as well as for heating).
I can imagine it might be hard for some to fathom that doing it this way may work out better at scale than trying to build CSP plants in regions with low irradiance/ limited land availability/etc.
There are plenty of places that don't have much sun that are already connected to places that do. They are are connected by copper wires.
There is no universe where trying to ship molten salt and keep it hot so it can turn water into steam is viable. Oil doesn't rely on heat gradients and doesn't lose its energy when put in a tank for a week.
A copper cable carries electricity indefinitely. Also remember that everywhere already has electricity from somewhere. Solar generation is not shipping from one place to another far away, it is offsetting power to somewhere in between.
Because it is an option, just like it is an option for those to place a bunch of PV down and not bother with storage costs for that. Some options will work for some and not for others.
And electricity needs to come from some source, ideally one that can provide more than +4hs and affordably.
> A copper cable carries electricity indefinitely.
All fields fall with distance from the source… shipping a source (like LNG, CL, and perhaps MS in the future) around to local nodes where it can be delivered with copper cables (after burning and combustion) is not beyond current logistics (and nor is factoring evaporation losses with LNG now).
> There are plenty of places that don't have much sun that are already connected to places that do. They are are connected by copper wires.
Right, tell that to every country that still imports hydrocarbons to burn for electricity/heat…
> There is no universe where trying to ship molten salt and keep it hot so it can turn water into steam is viable. Oil doesn't rely on heat gradients and doesn't lose its energy when put in a tank for a week.
I'm pretty sure that it will eventually be possible to have vacuum storage to keep it hot for longer than 17.5 hours with enough delta_k above freezing to provide a predictable amount of energy, so saying "There is no universe" would only apply to those like yourself who deem it beyond the realm of reason (which many things in this world tend to be for those who have walked it, thankfully progress isn't limited by such people in the long run).
Interesting that the notion of a multiverse you appeal to with "There is no universe" seems more realistic than the above…
> Solar generation is not shipping from one place to another far away, it is offsetting power to somewhere in between.
Solar collection is when you need to think about the infrastructure and the surface area needed if you want to do it on a large scale; perhaps beyond realm possibility of what some deem needed for any place in particular…
Electricity already comes from a lot of sources. It is pretty myopic to think people talking about solar panels means replacing all electricity generation with solar. Solar installations already pay for themselves in under 7 years in sunny areas. Peak electricity use is in the summer during the day, when solar would have the most impact and can be double the energy used at night.
> Right, tell that to every country that still imports hydrocarbons to burn for electricity/heat…
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, no one thinks that all potential solar power is already installed, this is about what happens in the future with rapidly decreasing solar prices. Also I don't know why you are talking about entire countries, all the parent poster said was that 'they live in an area without sun'. You keep bringing up shipping molten salt around the world for some bizarre reason. Electricity grids are meant to route power.
> I'm pretty sure that it will eventually be possible to have vacuum storage to keep it hot for longer than 17.5 hours with enough delta_k above freezing
Lol, show me where this anything like this has made money. Coal isn't even as viable anymore and that is dug out of the ground and shipped by rail. Molten salt would have to be super heated and then enormous amounts of energy would have to be used to move it.
Do you actually think that molten salt, with a melting temperature that is double what it takes to start weakening steel as well as being corrosive (https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zjb2pv4/revision/2) is going to be better to transport energy than copper cable (which is already run everywhere with electricity !)
Right, tell that to all the places rolling out CSP…
Very true
> It is pretty myopic to think people talking about solar panels means replacing all electricity generation with solar.
I don't think that all will be replaced with solar panels in the future, but considering the amount of energy that is absorbed by earth every second and the available surface area to collect and concentrate it, I think it possible that most of the energy will come from it (solar in general, not just solar panels).
I still think roll out will be slower in some areas and faster in others (mostly due to the incentives of all the different actors and their relative exposure to all the existing infrastructure).
> Solar installations already pay for themselves in under 7 years in sunny areas.
> Peak electricity use is in the summer during the day, when solar would have the most impact and can be double the energy used at night.
Yeah, its the short term time horizon (7 years vs 30 years) for profitability and looking at peak providing capabilities that attracts more projects in the US now (possibly because its a complement to all the existing hydro carbon infrastructure in place that wont be needed when more electricity generation can come from PV and CSP, that others places in the world don't have to the same degree and continue to build out CSP).
> Lol, show me where this anything like this has made money.
Cerro Dominador Project connected to the grid in chile in april this year with 110MW of CSP, so it's making money for someone in the chain (they also have 100MW of PV). Besides, I think nowadays cash flow matters more than present day absolute profitability, something that O&G producers have less of every year as demand growth slows due to higher end user prices and extraction costs rise.
> Molten salt would have to be super heated
That's what happens when you concentrate a large area of sunlight onto a receiver that contains the salt …
> and then enormous amounts of energy would have to be used to move it.
We already use "enormous amounts of energy" to move energy related products…
> Do you actually think that molten salt, with a melting temperature that is double what it takes to start weakening steel as well as being corrosive (https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zjb2pv4/revision/2)
Not all molten salts are created equal, nor do I think steel will be predominately used in most casing that actually touches the salts with higher delta_k and high heat capacities, UHTCs come to mind.
> is going to be better to transport energy than copper cable (which is already run everywhere with electricity !)
You make it seem like I'm saying that copper cables wont be used at all, where as I don't think it makes much sense over long distances… even now grids need to have power stations every so often in between all the copper cables… power stations that have to consume some source…
I've seen some disingenuous discussions, but this is something else.
No, I still think it will be possible. Power stations will use molten salt instead of NG and CL now, and they wont have to replace all of their existing systems that convert NG and CL into electricity through steam turbines…
> I've seen some disingenuous discussions, but this is something else.
Yeah its something else, for some reason you are unable to comprehend the possibility of something being (or the scale of such) and chose to ascribe it to dishonesty… nothing dishonest about me thinking based on the research thats being done in many areas wrt theoretical and live systems that the above will not be possible any more so than appealing the notions something not being possible even within multiple universes (which remain firmly in the realm of untested theory)…
Luckily possibilities aren't limited to such ways of thinking… nor to the work that's being done now to build toward such a future.
If you want any idea of where the industry is at now, i suggest reading more [0]