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Comment by mschild | Hacker News Reader

Sure, except Tesla has a history of performing just as janky repairs on their cars themselves. Its even stated in the article.[0]

Another question to consider is why the repair is 16k. Does is actually cost Tesla that much or do they just quote that much because they are realistically the only ones who can fix it so they can charge the price?

Driving around with a shoddy fix on a combustion engine can be just as dangerous. Yet, there are plenty independent mechanics that do a great job because they have access to OEM parts and manuals.

[0] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/tesla-model-y-owners-fin...

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>Sure, except Tesla has a history of performing just as janky repairs on their cars themselves. Its even stated in the article.[0]

Drilling and tapping a broken off plastic barb for a brass (or steel, or plastic, or whatever) barb is a very, very, very, standard procedure in any trade where you repair things.

I wouldn't call this hack. Appealing to authority is fashionable. People will poo-poo anything if they think they can get a few cheap virtue points for appealing to authority. Heck people will poo-poo the aftermarket versions of OEM stuff that's designed to fix specific issues with the OEM stuff on the basis of if the OEM wanted it that way they would have done it that way.

>Another question to consider is why the repair is 16k

Because the service writer couldn't get that part separately so they chose to quote for the whole assembly rather than ask the tech who did the diagnosis if there's any other options. They are not accustomed to having to think for themselves and do a quick fix. The environment of a service center is set up for a part replacing workflow. When all you have is a hammer everything is a nail. Whatever, shit happens. Rookie mistake.

Brass is downright professional.

<140°F @ <5 psi? JB Weld and call it a day.

https://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-weld-professional-size

Yep I had a plastic barb break off my coolant reservoir tank. I reamed it out with a twist drill, used epoxy to glue in a new barb I got at the hardware store, and it's been good since then (over 2 years now).

I started woodworking as hobby a few years ago, and used some epoxy here and there to fill voids in wood. But after having epoxy on hand all the time, I realized just how absurdly useful it is for fixing little things around the house. Our microwave handle barb broke off. Epoxy it back on. Dropped a potted plant and the pot broke. Epoxy it back together. Etc.

There are super ergonomic and foolproof products that I feel like everyone should have around in that one kitchen drawer that accumulates all the miscellaneous stuff: https://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-weld-syringe

Two part epoxy is duct tape for adults. I patched a cracked tub basin with marine grade and embedded fiberglass -- lasted 6 years (so far).

I ripped the front edge off one of my snowboards by riding into a tree - paid $20 for a shop repair that ripped off again in a day - glued it back with marine epoxy when I got home from that trip, and it's been good for another ~40 days of hard riding so far.

Agreed. The brass part is obviously higher quality, but I also wonder if it was intentionally plastic so that it would breakaway instead of damaging the battery in an event like this. If that was a design decision (not a cost decision), it would actually be a better idea to stick with the jb weld plastic part than go with brass.

It was intentionally plastic in that they were designing a molded part and chose to not have the nipples a separate part, but molded them in to save on the expense of designing and assembling a separate part.

Tesla really loves to integrate parts together - look up the "superbottle" for a previous example.

Yeah, that's what I'd call a hack. It would work, but it's kinda iffy compared to what they did :D

> Because the service writer couldn't get that part separately so they chose to quote for the whole assembly rather than ask the tech who did the diagnosis if there's any other options.

This makes it sound like the part in question could have been easily replaced. The assembly in this case was the seal pack that isn't intended to be serviced. Even if they could have ordered the plastic coolant line, the removal and tear down of the pack to replace the line would have been a tremendous effort. It's debatable that it would have been easier to replace the pack AND then part out the old pack.

The plastic coolant tube should have ended at the pack housing with a threaded insert and the tap should have just threaded into it. If pack had been designed in this manner, the repair would have been trivial.

The pack is has a severe design flaw in my opinion.

> it would have been easier to replace the pack AND then part out the old pack

That's what Tesla should have done. Charge $16k for a new pack including a $15k core charge. They aren't out the cost of the whole pack and the customer doesn't get screwed over.

>Another question to consider is why the repair is 16k

If you watch the video on 'Rich Rebuilds' YouTube channel that this article comes from, they mention the problem... The battery pack _can_ be opened and repaired, but it requires special training, equipment, and a specialized area of the service center to perform the work. They mention that Tesla _used_ to do this work and some of the Service Centers were properly equipped/trained to do handle it. However, Tesla found it was cost prohibitive to do at individual Service Centers, so now they have one central facility that repairs/reprocesses packs.

Rather than equip and train every Service Center, they've found it makes more sense to just replace the whole battery pack and send the old one back to the one central facility for service.

The battery pack is considered a high-voltage part. Tesla, by their policy (safety and liability reasons, presumably), won't sell you any of the high-voltage components.

> Another question to consider is why the repair is 16k. Does is actually cost Tesla that much or do they just quote that much because they are realistically the only ones who can fix it so they can charge the price?

The quote is to replace the whole battery pack so I really doubt that they are making a profit on it since it's one of the actually expensive part of the car.

As GP pointed out this is hardly right to repair, if Tesla quoted a whole pack that means there aren't any official operating procedures to replace to fix that part without replacing it while you can 100% blame Tesla for that, right-to-repair is about making parts available to do official repair, it's not about letting you figure out clever fixes on your car.

Not only did they quote a whole battery pack for this simple repair, but the guy should have the right to keep the 'broken' battery pack (as a backup after he got it repaired) since he is buying a new one for full price. But tesla was refusing that as well.

Especially since the used battery pack would likely fetch 11k+ on ebay.

Update: reread the article, customer has the 50kWh rear wheel drive car. That means he’s been offered a battery at 320 bucks per kWh - at that price, of course tesla are profiting from the sale. If you have the 75 kWh car the bill is presumably then north of $20k…

We can speculate pretty easily on how profitable that $16k pack is.

Let’s assume the customer has the largest pack Tesla fit to a model 3 (~75kwh). He has just been offered a new one at approx 213 dollars per kWh.

While only Tesla know for certain, it’s widly assumed in 2021 this costs Tesla around 140 dollars a kWh.

Aside from a couple of hoses, high and low voltage connectors, the battery is held to the bottom of the car by just 12 bolts if memory serves. If you have an appropriate workshop (like Tesla!) the labour costs will be minimal.

I’d have to disagree and suggest Tesla are likely making a typical car industry margin on the replacement battery.

Not that I disagree, but I'm sure these packs have a significant amount of overhead costs as well.

I’m more surprised there are people out there who think Tesla would by design offer after sales parts “at cost” or a loss personally!

Yeah spares are 30- 50% percent mark up.

> at that price, of course tesla are profiting from the sale.

Auto manufacturers are allowed to sell the spare parts at a profit as well.

Of course, I didn’t disagree. OP suggests they are being sold at cost.

This is still an important consideration for any Right to Repair regulation because there needs to be some thought put in to what constitutes "a part".

It would obviously be absurd for Tesla to claim that the entire car is one part so when this coolant fitting breaks the vehicle is totaled.

It doesn't necessarily mean that Tesla must change their designs, recategorize products, or sell "parts for parts" as separate SKUs. But it is probably not unreasonable for Right to Repair regulations to require that Tesla document reports of damage like this and make those documents available to third parties.

> on your car.

As OP pointed out, it wasn't even OP's car - it was a lease, not a loan. The risk of allowing mechanics to do quick fixes is too high for them.

Which is one of the issues with leases. I have some (mostly) non-functional damage to my car from a couple self-inflicted low-speed collisions in a driveway/garage. I'll take some hit when I eventually trade the car in. But I usually trade in cars at 15-20 years and the hit will be far less than if it were a leased vehicle.

Though, in this case, I'm not sure why the owner didn't have comprehensive on a presumably fairly new vehicle. I actually did but decided it wasn't the deductible and presumed hike in premium.

Talked about in the video. The owner (lessee actually), messed up, and admits to the mistake.

Which also means that OP shouldn't be on the hook for repairs unless it's due to negligence.

And even IF OP is on the hook they should be able to choose how to repair it, as long as it fits NHTSA/DMV/whatever code.

It is mentioned in the article that the person was actually driving without the right insurance due to an error when moving his policy from his old to his new car so while it sucks, the liability is not with Tesla nor should it considering the consumer made the error.

> due to an error when moving his policy from his old to his new car

Where does it say that?

> without the right insurance

Not having that coverage isn't objectively wrong, and it shouldn't mean you lose tons of money because you can't choose the mechanic.

https://youtu.be/vVSw3KSevEc?t=6m30s

"The quote is to replace the whole battery pack so I really doubt that they are making a profit on it since it's one of the actually expensive part of the car."

They're also assuming they will get to keep the broken pack. They end up with $16,000 plus anything recoverable from the pack, like the battery cells.

Please stop calling this a "clever fix". The fix is standard procedure in the industry of fixing these kinds of things (be it an electric car or an industrial 100 ton press.

That being said, the design of the car underside and this pack is poor. It should not be a single 16k part which has to be replaced as a unit, that's just purely incompetent. I also guarantee that Tesla DOES make money on this part. Nobody sells parts at no profit.

It does not matter how standard in the industry that fix is, I am not arguing for Tesla here, I am contesting the idea that this situation is covered by "right-to-repair".

Right to repair is about availability of replacement parts and repair manuals so that third parties can do repair on X. It's about Apple no controlling flow of parts so tightly that they can sue someone for doing "unauthorized repairs" when they change a broken screen.

Most importantly right-to-repair is about things that you own, which was not even the case here seeing how the car was leased.

So it does not matter if this is a "clever fix" or the equivalent of tie-wrapping your bumper so it does not fall off while driving. In both cases it has nothing to do with right-to-repair and trying to use it as an umbrella term for every automakers shady practice is how you end up with no legislation at all because lawmakers won't enact bills that allow you to fix a leased car with something that isn't prescribed by the manufacturer.

What you want right to repair to be, and what the law becomes is unlikely to have much in common - judging by other laws

You're ignoring the part of the transaction where Tesla gets a $16k battery pack for free with $700 worth of damage to it. Want to charge full price for the new pack? Fine, but I'm keeping the old one or you're paying me market value for it as is. This is where the profit margin is for Tesla, you think they just throw these slightly damaged packs in the trash?

> Does is actually cost Tesla that much or do they just quote that much because they are realistically the only ones who can fix it so they can charge the price?

Niche technology is never cheap and they'll do it as long as their customers tolerate/pay it.

You don't own a rental so there would be no "right to repair".

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