Comment by drew1492 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by drew1492 | Hacker News Reader

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This is not true, or partially true at best. As far as I'm aware, current consensus is that psychedelics are not a causative agent in psychosis or schizophrenia in the absence of predisposing risk factors. 0.5-1% of the population will develop schizophrenia, and for these susceptible individuals, a psychedelic trip can be the event that triggers the full-blown disorder. But so can any other significant psychological stressor, like the death of a family member or friend, or going off to college alone. But in general, psychedelic use is not correlated with mental disorders, in fact there are some studies that suggest that psychedelic users may have lower rates of depression, anxiety, and increased empathy and openness.

oh, here's an interesting one I hadn't seen before: https://akjournals.com/view/journals/2054/aop/article-10.155... "Lifetime use of psychedelics is associated with better mental health indicators during the COVID-19 pandemic"

But even if psychedelics were a causative risk in some mental disorders, shouldn't we as a society entrust adults to determine their own risk tolerance? We don't ban alcohol because a certain percentage of drinkers will develop alcoholism. We don't ban smoking even though it is a (or even THE?) leading cause of preventable death in the US. Why should other drugs be any different?

My depersonalisation disorder started after an LSD trip. Was it really that drug that did it to me or was it always going to happen? I don't know but even so I've never gotten any of the benefits that psychedelics advocates talk about. For me it was just fun and that's it. I still absolutely hate what the drug did to me and I wish I had never taken it but comments like yours convinced me. I feel like the constant advocating and laying out the benefits like they are a guarantee is really dangerous for a chemical this powerful.

Exactly... We're expecting those affected negatively by the drug to come out in force to combat the LSD advocates. How can this be possible? Those given psychoses by these drugs end up in mental institutions, at best, on the streets at worst. They are in no position to advocate for themselves.

The truth is the drug is a mixed bag. Some people take it and may only report benefits. However, some people take it and develop intense psychological disorders they may not have ever developed otherwise. Simply saying 'oh they were pre-disposed' is hardly an excuse. Maybe they were pre-disposed, but not enough to develop it without an intense trigger event, like an LSD trip.

Here's a similar situation. Auto-immune disease runs in my family. My older cousin has vitiligo. My brother didn't have it, but then one day he suffered a severe burn. A few weeks later, he started developing vitiligo. Burns and other severe events are known to trigger vitiligo. Had he simply avoided it, he would likely never have developed vitiligo. But alas he did.

My uncle has schizophrenia. I see how it can affect him and the family negatively. You can't put me within 10 feet of LSD. Sorry, I'm just not interested. The risk of me developing actual schizophrenia is simply not one I'd be willing to take, but most LSD advocates would not even mention this, instead mentioning the silly pleasure it brings them. Sorry, no amount of poetic creativity, artistic brilliance, or musical talent is going to convince me that a non-zero risk of beginning to hear random voices is good.

The negative symptoms are so bad, that the positive ones, which are basically momentary pleasure, are simply not worth it being tolerated as a self-medicated drug. Even the supposed medical benefits deserve intense scrutiny given how dangerous the drug can be.

> But even if psychedelics were a causative risk in some mental disorders, shouldn't we as a society entrust adults to determine their own risk tolerance

No, because such allowances are made with the assumption that people act reasonably. GK Chesterton said we should tolerate all thoughts except for the thought that stops thought. We can tolerate all kinds of insane thoughts. The only thought we cannot tolerate is the thought (the will to take LSD for 'fun') that has the potential to stop all thought. LSD, and other psychedelics, cause the breakdown of rationality that is the very reason we allow adults to make their own decisions. It is completely incoherent to allow LSD while also using adult cognitive skills as the basis of adult freedom.

What an absolute bullshit.

Seriously, you propose to deny adults freedom of thought because there are "wrong" thoughts, defined by "reasonability ", which isn't and can't be defined?

In this line of thought your thoughts about banning thinking should be banned.

See where this leads?

> In this line of thought your thoughts about banning thinking should be banned.

No, because acknowledging the existence of such a thought does not imply thinking it.

The flaw with your claims is the underlying belief that human thought tends -- if left untouched by others -- tends towards freedom.

There is little reason to believe this. Throughout history, many civilizations have independently arisen that have fully embraced the thought that stops all other thought. You see this is in various cultural degradations, human atrocities, etc that have occurred over and over again.

In reality, human thought is not totally 'free'. There are some thoughts that you can think that make you less free, and should be discouraged.

Here's a more poignant example, would you allow adults to drive a metal spike into their brain to allow 'freedom'? Why or why not? If you do allow them, how can you possibly claim to desire 'freedom' for others, since -- by definition -- doing such a thing to your body is going to put you at the mercy of others for many years to come (and if they can't help you, then to the mercy of nature). If you don't allow them, why? If encouraging every liberty is not the goal of this exercise of freedom, then exactly what are you arguing about?

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