Comment by jmpman | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jmpman | Hacker News Reader

I just did a 2 day 2000 mile trip in my long range model 3. Total charging costs were around $100, which didn’t include two stops where the superchargers were free (network connectivity problems?). Required a total of 13 supercharging stops. Each stop was between 20min to 45min. I started off completely full, and charged overnight at a Tesla destination charger, (so, 14 stops?). Roughly half the cost of the article’s reported charging costs.

At two superchargers, I had to wait due to a crowd, which probably added a full hour to my trip. But, all the superchargers worked.

What’s not talked about are the bathroom facilities. You’d expect the superchargers to be located next to a fast food restaurant or gas station. Some place with extended hours and restrooms. Nope. Ended up peeing in bushes on the side of the road in the middle of the night. Tesla needs to fix that.

At one Supercharger in a hotel parking lot, the fellow chargers informed me that the hotel wasn’t friendly to supercharging restroom seekers. I tried crossing a busy freeway to get to a gas station on the other side, only to find they were open, but their restroom closed. Peed in a culvert.

Once I arrived at the Shamrock Texas supercharger past midnight, and the attached gas station (a Conaco used for inspiration in Pixar Cars - highly recommend checking it out) was closed. They probably have some camera footage of me peeing behind a bush. Quite opposite from the premium experience you’d get driving a BMW or Mercedes. Luckily I’m the prime demographic for mandatory late night public urination. However, my wife is not.

I've done multiple ~1000mi road trips in my Model X, and I've peed in a lot of bushes too. A lot of the newer chargers (at least on the east coast) are located at WaWa's, and have 24hr restrooms. But the chargers at malls are a pain. Either the mall is closed, and you need to pee in the bushes, or the mall is open and the traffic is terrible and the chargers are ICE'ed in.

There is one charger in Hardee SC thats in the parking lot of a police station. I was a bit nervous to use the bushes there..

I wonder if the smell of urine is a thing around superchargers.

I'd hazard a guess that most people will opt to urinate as far away from sources of high voltage electricity as they can. In the UK we periodically get news stories about people being electrocuted by urinating on railways, and many will have been traumatised by watching the terrifying "Play Safe" Public Information Films as children.

I've taken multiple long trips in my Toyota Prius, and never once had to pee in the bushes. 600 mile range on a single fill-up, but after driving for a few hours I'm usually ready for a 5 minute break.

I totally get how cool EVs are, and how much fun they can be to drive. And if you're spending 90+% of your time just commuting to work, it can potentially save you money on gas.

But I would definitely not subject myself to long road trips with EVs at this point in history. One out-of-service charging station along the way can ruin your whole week.

My experience with hybrids and long trips is that you're stopping more frequently for gas. They've got small gas tanks and small batteries. Both of which are burned through quickly when you're on a freeway and not touching the brake pedal.

I'm real curious as to which hybrids you've been taking trips in. A gen 4 Prius can easily do 600 miles at highway speed. A gen 3 should be able to do at least 550 on a full tank. That's nearly 8 hours at 70mph.

There's no current EV that can do that.

My experience was with a BMW 330e. I guess I should clarify, I mean true plug in hybrids. Is a gen 4 Prius a PHEV?

The Prius Prime is the PHEV version, which is more expensive than the standard Prius. It has the same gas engine and nearly the same gasoline range as the standard Prius (it gets slightly lower MPG due to the increased weight). You're obviously not going to get far on battery power alone, that is about 25 miles. The intention was to be able to cover a typical commute to work, and then be able to charge a work.

Just read a little bit on the 330e. It doesn't get nearly as good gas mileage as a Prius, but is obviously a much peppier car.

Though if I was spending that much money, I'd try to get a Rav4 Prime, which is nearly as quick (5.7 seconds for 0-60 mph), 600 mile range, and all wheel drive. But that's a personal preference, I'm not in the market for a sports sedan.

my Prius Prime plug in hybrid is great. 40KM full EV range which is 90% of my yearly trips in town so only have to fuel up on longer trips. Highway range (with extra drag of a roof rack and bike on top per my last trip) was 800km per tank.

Its too bad PHEVs are not modular to allow for removing the gasoline engine for the 90% of trips where you don't need it.

In fact, I have a vision for modular PHEVs where the gasoline engine is on a trailer you pull on trips, and all it does is charge the electric battery to keep the electric motor running. You wouldn't even have to own or maintain the gas engine, you could rent them at u-haul or some a car rental chain.

I would actually love something like this for my Tesla.

They had a range extension trailer for the original Tesla roadster. I don't know how popular it was...

The main issue with that is the total efficiency isn't that great.

If you're not taking frequent long trips, than it seems a pure EV makes the most sense. You can just rent a car for the longer trips.

If you are more frequently taking long trips, but your daily trips are often short enough, a PHEV can make the most sense.

In the UK an ancient law says it is legal to pee against the rear wheel of your carriage.

Don’t try “googling” the validity of this law. The mainstream (ahem) media anti-public-disorder industrial complex seems to have polluted cyberspace with articles falsely claiming this law is a myth. Stand up for your rights and pee on your wheels.

/s

See also: British women having the right to urinate in a policeman’s helmet if they are caught short in public (and are pregnant.)

Is it possible to drive 1000 miles in one direction in Britain?

Edit to add: nope, The greatest distance between two points is 968.0 km (601+1⁄2 mi) (between Land's End, Cornwall and John o' Groats, Caithness), 838 miles (1,349 km) by road.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain

The M25. You can drive way more than that anticlockwise, and clockwise is even longer.

I did a 1,857mile (2,989km) road trip including some of the more remote parts of Scotland in an electric car last year. Interestingly most of the ChargePlace Scotland chargers were in public car parks, which have public toilets. The Highland Council even has a map of public toilets. All very civilised.

When it comes to Tesla superchargers in the UK, most are in service stations, which tend to be open all the time, and indeed were some of the few facilities to remain open in the strictest periods of lockdown given that good transportation was classed as essential service. There are a few superchargers by hotels and restaurants, but in my experience they're always fine with you using their facilities (the main issue seems to be a few who charge excessive parking fines if you don't register with them while charging).

It's interesting that these charging stations are even permitted to be built without restrooms.

No gas station built today would be exempt from that requirement. Although I can think of at least a few unattended gas pumps that also are without restrooms.

It's obviously an emerging market, but it seems like charging stations would be suited for bucee's or even truck stop style facilities, with areas to rest, eat, shower, etc. At least compared to consumer based gas stations. I'm not sure what the economics of building those would look like without selling hundreds of gallons of diesel at a time.

Most recent long drive was 725 miles in a gasoline-fueled Volkswagen. Took about 12 hours with one 10 minute fuel stop.

So what you are saying, you could do the 2000 mile trip in 33 hours! Of-course, that assumes you do not sleep for the entire trip, don't take bathroom breaks or stops for food.

I think I rather do the 2000 miles in a BEV and take some breaks in the driving.

With multiple drivers, sure, why not drive non-stop? My brother and his family drove across Canada a year or two ago to visit family; with kids, flying would have been exorbitantly expensive ($1000 per person) and he only had so much time off of work, so him and his wife made the 4000 km trip in less than 40 hours. And the same on the way back.

So I did the same recently, but in a PHEV, and I honestly think it's the best of both worlds. In my daily usage, I use zero fuel. Last time I filled up was in March, because I just charge it at home and nearly all of my daily driving is within the 30 mile EV-only range. But when we drove across Europe I could just carry on for about 600 miles per tank, only filling up once at a well stocked petrol station(with working bathrooms and a restaurant).

Anecdotally - tried to charge the car in Germany when we stopped for lunch, but found that it was impossible to start the session, the app wouldn't accept my non-german payment card so that was that. Would suck if I had to charge.

> So I did the same recently, but in a PHEV, and I honestly think it's the best of both worlds. In my daily usage, I use zero fuel.

Yeah in theory PHEV provide the ideal flexibility of EV for commute and ICE for long-range driving, however apparently lots of people with PHEV never charge them, mostly resulting in less efficient ICEs / HEV (because the plug-in-ability means a larger battery and more complexity, so a PHEV is heavier and more complex than an equivalent HEV).

I know, it's a disgrace - apparently here in UK a lot of people buy PHEVs because they have a much much lower tax rate for company buyers, but obviously you get the tax discount whether you plug it in or not. So some people just....don't. Which as you said, actually means poorer fuel economy and increased complexity for zero reason. I absolutely think that those people should lose their tax discounts entirely.

I think that mainly happens when they are bought for fleets where cars are issued to drivers who did not choose the PHEV. The drivers are often told that they can be reimbursed for fuel and only need to turn in receipts, but there is no provision for reimbursement of electricity. This pushes people to just drive them as hybrids instead of EVs.

I’ve got to think that anyone who chooses and buys their own PHEV has done so because it meets their needs and they plan to use the EV mode significantly. Most PHEV drivers that I know hate it when they have to switch to gasoline partially because of the added noise and cost and partially because it seems like a kind of failure.

>>Most PHEV drivers that I know hate it when they have to switch to gasoline partially because of the added noise and cost and partially because it seems like a kind of failure.

Ha, that's literally me. It's like a game - you have to keep the needle in the EV range when driving normally, pushing it a bit too much and making the ICE start feels like losing. Obviously as long as there is any charge in the battery, if I'm driving long distance then it really doesn't matter, but it's cool to see the ICE shut down every time I lift my foot off the throttle.

When the infrastructure is multi-fuel, the car being multi-fuel is a great value.

Many years ago, I was driving across Europe with my old petrol car that was converted to use LPG. I like LPG because it's cheaper, the engine makes less noise and it is more environmentally friendly(but it's bad for the car AFAIK, the car was a clunker anyway).

What I found out was that in Europe, even within the EU, LPG stations don't have the same popularity everywhere and even if you find one it may have different port, thus you may need an adapter to fit yours.

When driving In Austria, I run out of LPG multiple times because the LPG stations were more like novelty, away from the main roads with no guarantees on the working hours.

Electric chargers still feel like that. There are many of them but not everywhere and the quality and availability on the spot is non-standart.

Petrol stations are actually quite good experiences most of the time. The refuelling experience is very robust and most of the time they will provide you with a WC, a place to rest, a place to wait, a place to eat, a place to shop.

Petrol stations at remote places tend to be relaxing, revitalising experiences even when the facilities are not top-notch. Well, at least in Europe.

I would love electric infrastructure to catch up and preserve that culture.

LPG is becoming progressively less common in Australia, this article[1] focuses on Queensland but the story is the same across Australia

”Since July 2010 there has been a 70% drop in the volume of LPG sales,” Mr Jeffreys said.

“The number of LPG registered vehicles has also fallen in the last five years.”

RACQ Technical Advisor Bill Reeves said the availability of LPG is set to further decrease.

“New fuel outlets simply aren’t putting in LPG bowsers and many existing stations are removing their LPG tanks when they are due to be recertified because the limited returns from the sale of LPG do not justify the expense,” Mr Reeves said.

Regional Queenslanders bear the brunt of the shortage with only one LPG bowser in 15 regional centres and no bowsers in Blackwater, Childers, Moranbah, Proserpine, Tully and Cunnamulla.

For residents of Moranbah this means a more than 270km round trip to the nearest LPG bowser at Puma Carmilla.

“Remote service stations may be less reliable because, if the LPG machinery breaks down, they have to wait a long time for parts and a technician to repair the equipment,” Mr Reeves said.

“This can cause problems for regional Queenslanders when there’s only one LPG bowser in the area.”

In addition to the shortage, no new LPG passenger cars are being manufactured in Australia and the benefits of choosing LPG are diminishing.

“LPG tanks in your car are expensive and must be recertified every 10 years,” Mr Reeves said.

“The costs associated with maintaining your car’s fuel tank means LPG is no longer a cheap fuel source for Queenslanders.

1. https://www.racq.com.au/Living/Articles/Wheres-the-LPG

As an electric car owner, the thought of paying for batteries and oil changes sounds terrible. I looked into the hybrid jeep to replace my aging one, but I know how much the maintenance on my gas beast is. I'll pay a premium to add a electic drive train and still have to take it back to the dealership every several months. Awful. I'll just wait for the fully electric version.

I mean, that's a fair point, except that the pricing structure doesn't reflect the differences at all. Servicing a fully electric car should be cheaper, but in practice it just isn't. Servicing a PHEV should be more expensive but it also just isn't. A service of the E-Tron or the MB EQC costs the same as an equivalent ICE car even though there's hardly anything to do, and the service of my PHEV Volvo costs the same as the service of a regular ICE Volvo despite there being more to do.

So you might find that you'll get a fully electric Jeep but your servicing costs won't go down at all, it will still require an annual service to keep the warranty, and the dealer will almost certainly charge the same as for a normal one if not more(and I've seen dealers charge more, since EV cars can only be worked on by technicians trained to work on them, and there's comparatively fewer of them)

I've got to disagree with you. I've got a Tesla. Maintenance costs going into 2 years have been tire rotations. I guess I'll see in years 3-5, but I have a VW of about the same vintage and it's required coolant system repairs (thankfully under warranty), oil and other fluid changes, brakes are coming up. I don't really expect to see anything like that in the Tesla unless there is suspension wear/tear and then eventually things like the power windows, etc.

Interesting that other car manufacturers are requiring maintenance of their electric cars. I haven't hear that before. Sounds like legacy businesses maintaining their legacy business models.

The best part about things not working in Germany is seeing the lengths they'll go to to blame you for the failure and refuse to admit the system in question is anything other than the Best Thing Ever That Never Breaks.

The non-Tesla public chargers I used are pretty well all at gas stations or big-box stores. So there's always a bathroom, a fast-food joint, and sometimes even a real-food diner.

This is a realistic view of the current experience for some users and some EV models in the UK:

"The PAINS of Living with an EV! My WORST Experience Yet"

https://youtu.be/XwevvreoNjE

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