The First Delta Force Trainee Class | Hacker News Reader

The First Delta Force Trainee Class

historyofyesterday.com

58 pointsstanrivers52 comments

When we were teens, my brother and I "invited" a very quiet, ex-Delta Force gentleman over to our woods to play paintball against us. We weren't entirely smart, but figured he'd join the other loud mouth, overconfident, just out of airborne school soldiers we'd had over, and he would end up with a big splat of yellow paint in the middle of his facemask a few times. We were bit cocky.

"Sure", he said.

"One two conditions." Pause. "There's no time limit, and no boundaries." Pause for a beat. "I'm going to run off and lie dog for three days. Then I'll get up. Hunt you down. Kill you."

In that moment I achieved enlightenment. Maybe the reason that some people or groups could do far more than others was not some special gifted super-power, but the willingness to put in unthinkable amounts off work for the slightest edge in advantage. Stack this up across all possible advantages, and the results would look impossible.

If you want to read about the Delta Force, I highly recommend the slim book "Leadership and Training for the Fight" by Paul Rowe[0]. It's not technically a history of anything, but it lets you live inside the head of someone with a very different way of viewing the world - almost an alien mindset, and see how they solve problems and function.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Training-Fight-Operations-...

Back in the day when I was in the (Dutch) Navy, at one point we had a special forces team on board. They quite literally spent 8 hours per day in the gym, 8 hours per day doing gunnery and/or tactical exercises and divided the remaining 8 hours between sleeping, eating and showering. Every day was the same, except that possibly the individual exercises differed. All of the soldiers on that team were focused on their job to a completely unhealthy degree, except of course that in their line of work not being focused like that can be way more unhealthy (ie, it directly leads to getting shot).

It is a fascinating lifestyle and I'm glad that some people are willing to do it, but I'm also glad that my own life is not like that. Apparently the suicide rate of retired special forces soldiers is several times higher than the baseline because if you leave (and sooner or later everyone gets too old and slow to keep up the lifestyle), almost everything you lived for is now gone.

Reminds me of the Teller (from Penn & Teller) quote: "Sometimes magic is just someone spending more time on something than anyone else might reasonably expect."

Also like the story:

> A fellow got backstage after the violin maestro's performance. "That was amazing", he gushed! I would give half my life to be able to play as well as you do! The violinist looked at him and nodded. "Yes, that is about what it took!"

> might reasonably expect

That part made me laugh too hard.

I am stealing that quote now, though. It's so true - think of the effortlessness with which a musician does what they do. It's more or less magic. Same thing with most things.

In the military I met one Delta guy who was back in regiment. I had the opportunity to observe 3 or 4 for a few weeks. As a civilian I did training with ex-delta. My company XO who later went to ARSOF ran missions with them (or rather they were a component of his missions).

Anyone with personal experience will tell you they are not cowboys as they are often depicted. They are incredibly focused, quiet, hard working, and almost autistically detail oriented with their craft.

The level of “professionalism” required to operate at that level is simply impossible for most people to sustain.

Don’t let the cargo shorts and flip flops fool you.

This is a pretty damned key point about Delta guys (and yes, gals.)

The amount of focus, attention to details, mental acuity, instant decisiveness you require would and does wash most people out.

It’s not like the Navy Seals movie with Charlie Sheen folks.

SEALs do have a different culture from Delta, some of that stems from Navy culture I’m told. Some argue SEALs are too cavalier. I only went on one mission with SEALs and they were professional. Others who’ve been around them more seem to be more opinionated one way or the other. I have no desire to wade into that argument.

You brought up Sheen, people often confuse the various organizations that make up JSOC.

I think for SEALs, their conduct varies heavily between Teams and even platoons.

An important point you make, though: you represent your group (in this case, SEALs) in many peoples eyes.

Interesting perspective / story; from a work-life perspective, it does seem that those that win, take a lot more low risk, low probability, high pay-off shots. It's all about how you can setup the odds to be in your favor if you are willing to work that extra x%.

Here it's the same thing - spending extra effort waiting for the right moment to happen. He would not be just waiting for 3 days to just wait. He is waiting to get that lucky chance when the odds are in his favor.

Interesting short story.

contrary to popular opinion and Hollywood most of these elite special forces teams don't succeed because they are aim-bot super soldiers. It mostly comes down to intel, preparation, and better gear

I can offer a bit of insight on this, having seen a fair amount of training of a free different groups (helped run a heavily used MOUT town, basically a fake town where they could run around shooting without hurting anyone).

You'd actually be surprised about how good their accuracy is, and even more so their reaction time. Their weapons are almost always pointed in the right direction, and they just move faster than the normal Marines and Army infantry.

Their gear is better, but not all that much better than an average recon team. Their Intel is better, in that they are fully briefed on it, rather than the chopped down versions the regulars get.

The biggest difference is their training and lifestyle. They don't have to deal with the bullshit that regulars do, don't have to play stupid games. Their job is to be good at their job, so that is all they do. And because of all that training time, because they can focus without being pulled into a working party or parade duty.

While many units generally consist of smaller teams, the teams can often be changed and switched around as people get specialized or re-assigned at different points, this generally doesn't happen for the very elite units.

Small teams are kept together at all times since very early in the training. Doing the same exercises many many times with the same exact people leads to mastery that makes them just seem faster and more fluid.

The lifestyle point is also true, its easier to keep your edge when there aren't constant mindless tasks to be done (gate duty) for many hours a day.

- I'm saying this from experience with armed forces, but can't claim its true for all elite units everywhere.

They are better soldiers because of preparation, aka training.

But it still takes someone with certain mental capabilities to do it well, aka the super soldier.

Reminds me of Carlos Hathcock, generally considered to be the first example of a "modern" sniper. He would spends days crawling through fields in Vietnam deep in enemy territory just for a chance at one single shot on a high value target.

I only know one story of "delta force" from my friend in the military. My friend got a crappy shift stationed at a small exit gate on a base in Iraq. It was around 2am and 4 atvs were trying to leave the base with duffel bags. These people on atvs had no badges in a black unmarked uniform with balaclavas on. My friend kept the gate closed. They spoke down to him yelling at him to open the gate in some kind of hurry. They refused to show any orders. My friend took his machine gun and pointed it at the first guys forehead. These guys were not leaving and were about to get shot. He had shot people before at the gate and he moved his index finger onto the trigger. My friend demanded to know what was in the duffel bags, see orders and ignored his radio. The men on atvs demanded him to answer his radio. My friend was getting ready to open fire. The first guy on the atv saw this wasn't going well - tried to calm things down - and opened a duffel bag. It was cash. 4 atvs carrying 20+ duffel bags of cash. Luckily for my friend, he finally answered his radio, and it was the base commander ordering him to let the atvs out of the gate. He let them go. The 4 atvs drove off into the night with duffels of cash. He referred to them as "spookes" - and this scenario was quite common after that.

This would be a great opener for a Jason Statham movie.

So, do we know what they were doing with all that cash?

This likely was a mix of CIA and SOF personnel; could be cash for informants or all sorts of other wacky stuff.

Taking care of the Pit - https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/pent...

I was aircrew in the USAF and I saw Pararescue and SERE instructor training. That stuff is absolutely insane and sadistic. Even then, at the top of my physical fitness/ability, I wouldn’t have been able to cut it. The endurance and stamina required is just unreal. The majority of those classes wash out too. It’s high pain and high risk from the beginning.

I can’t imagine going a step beyond and training for the special forces of the special forces, haha

The book Black Hawk Down has a lot about the Delta Force culture, especially in relation to the Rangers they worked with.

I didn’t read the book (probably should), but I worked with a few of them personally in my second OEF tour. Well, as well as you can if you weren’t in it with them. The thing is, they don’t talk. They call themselves “quiet professionals”. (We had some seals on the team too. They tend to be a bit more open.) When the deltas from Gothic Serpent told the story, it was extremely detailed and factual and emotionless, pretty much like all of our debriefs. (There is no book authorized from the deltas.) I remember at the end for lessons learned, the NCO focused on water management / preventing dehydration in disconnected combat operations, presumably because that was the one simple thing that could have increased effectiveness.

Do you have a summary of the culture? I hear mixed things, but I wonder how much of that is just a requirement of the jobs that they do needing to be performed by certain personalities

Delta selects for intelligent, physically fit individuals who don’t know how to quit.

Less team, more solo capable war fighters who can plan, then adapt and overcome.

Bowden got the culture wrong.

I've been curious about the Delta Force for a while, and I am wondering if there's some sort of training available for civilians that could give you at least a glimpse of the preparation they go through. I'm sure there are many, but I've never heard anything particularly good about one in particular.

Any suggestions based on personal experience?

To be clear: main reason I'm interested in this is simply because it's the kind of preparation that could help you in case you find yourself in a very rare, but potentially lethal, situation (e.g. someone attacking you with a knife in a dead alley, or stuff like this - not the best example but you get the idea).

> (e.g. someone attacking you with a knife in a dead alley, or stuff like this - not the best example but you get the idea).

Run away. Seriously, it’s the best most reliable defence against a knife.

They don’t show this in the movies but a successful defense against a knife attack still leaves you very cut up. Just not dead, maybe.

I’ve been doing a martial art for 10 years and the main thing I learned is never to be a badass IRL. Doesn’t matter how good you are or how much better than the other person, you will get hit and it’s not worth it. Especially when there’s no rules – one good punch to the back of your neck/head and you’re a vegetable.

> Run away.

"dead alley" means that you're not able to run away, and you are forced to face your opponent.

I am curious about Krav Maga [0], and heard it's very effective against this type of threats. Anyone wants to chime in?

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

The beginner krav maga classes I’ve been to were a joke. Lots of false confidence, little useful stuff against an assailant who wants to do you harm. It probably gets better in more advanced classes.

Haven’t been in a dead alley situation luckily, but I would probably try to distract the person (like by throwing my wallet) and run away past them. Based on my experience in the boxing ring, untrained fighters get very confused when you rush them … but it’s a high risk strategy if they have a knife.

Perhaps the most real-world useful thing I learned in boxing is how to take a punch without flinching. Hope I never get to use it irl :)

Unless the situation you want to prepare is in/exfiltration of 30+miles of unfriendly territory, stuff like judo/jujitsu/... will be more immediately useful in real life situations. Less badass though, granted.

Check out GORUCK events. They're led by former special forces cadre.

https://www.goruckevents.com/

From what I've read, although they do hand to hand combat it's not very highly prioritised compared to being good with a gun and shooting people.

krav maga is the path here.

"You haven't failed until you stop trying" or "Failure is a choice" ... There's lots of other phrasings of that, still good advice.

Cutting your losses is also a valid advice. Sunk cost fallacy and what not.

Yes it is good advice for big picture decision making. However, cutting your losses due to small bumps in the road will certainly keep success out of reach. Large orgs like the US military need some people who clearly understand that quitting is not an option until they are ordered to do so.

Eric Haney’s book is great, another one along the same lines is “Quiet soldier” by Adam Ballinger, about a guy who did selection and trained with the part-time (Territorial Army) SAS battalion.

F Eric haney (just passing along the feelings of a buddy that was with CAG for a time)

There's something more than a little gross in reading that Delta Force (gotta love self-aggrandizing names. I suppose Hep-Cat-with-Guns was rejected out of hand.) was inspired by the British campaign in the Malaya Emergency[0], which seems to have set the modern standard for blood-soaked, torture-ridden "counter-insurgency" warfare.

The Wikipedia page [1] references on event as the "British Mai Lai". But it happened in 1948, decades before the Mai Lai [2] massacre.

N.B. I'm expressly not saying that there's anything uniquely wicked about British or American soldiers, many of whom seem to be decent sorts, doing jobs that I could not. But the mythos of so-called elite forces is a giant stinking vat of horse pickles, and always was. (Bret Devereaux's material about the Spartans seems like proof enough [3])

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batang_Kali_massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre [3] https://acoup.blog/category/collections/this-isnt-sparta/

delta force is short for "1st Special Forces Operational Detachment–Delta"

I do believe the thing you’re missing with Western forces is that the events listed were aberrations rather than the norm.

Also, should you not like “Delta,” and frankly I don’t see how a Greek letter is aggrandizing, you could always go with “CAG.”

Last, what you’re claiming is neither discussed in TFA nor supported by historical record. CAG was created as a result of European terrorist hostage events.

Hey. Thanks for your response.

Greek letters first. I’m not particularly knowledgeable of American military nomenclature. Where there Alpha, Beta, and Gamma forces first? “Delta” suggests small but vitally important difference to me; think calculus or mechanics (delta-vee FTW). Perhaps my inner nerd is getting the better of me, and I’m reading things into the name that weren’t present in the mind of the originator.

Where these aberrations? Maybe. It seems logical to me that for every outrage gaining notoriety, there are N more that escape attention. My own father said he saw plenty of brutality against civilians while fighting in the British army in North Africa and later Burma (now Myanmar obvs). It has been 50 years since tens of thousands of Catholic refugees crossed the border between the UK and Ireland. It was soldiers and policemen they were fleeing from. Britain had its dirty wars in Malaya, Oman, and Kenya (with some convenient record destruction for the latter). The US seems to have covered itself with less than glory in the prisons of Baghdad, and the black sites in Poland and elsewhere. France’s record in North African is pretty ugly. Italy dealt brutally with Ethiopia. The Russians raped there way to Berlin (yes, and fought bravely against the Nazis). Maybe aberrations aren’t as aberrant after all.

I’m not here to draw (false) equivalence between Delta/the Paras/whatever and the Nazis. But I stand by the idea that there’s something odd about professional soldiering. And not everyone who does it is in the business for there love of democracy and the flag! People who kill other people in the furtherance of national goals, rather than in direct defence of their homes need extra attention, and extra love sometimes, but always extra vigilance.

When Delta was founded, the US Special Forces were broken down into three team types.

Alpha Team - (or A-team) was a group of 12 men who would operate in the behind enemy lines together.

Bravo detachment - A similarly sized headquarters group of men who would stay behind and support and communicate with multiple A-teams. (Sort of like a NASA mission control team)

Charlie detachment - An overall administrative headquarters team over multiple A and B groups.

When a new form of special forces was organized with a different focus for the team's capabilities, they just grabbed the next word in the Nato phonetic alphabet - Delta.

This is new information for me; very cool; I assumed there had to be a reason. What's your background in the subject matter?

To the gentleman's post above, it does seem to me that Delta has a more negative public image as compared to say the Navy Seals... is there any specific reason for that? or do you disagree with that comment?

Source: I am not an operator nor ex-military, but my line of work lets me interact with a bunch of ex-SOF guys.

It's interesting you say that, as my understanding is that the perception is flipped within the SOF community. Most of the guys I've spoken with have nothing but positive things to say about people from Delta. On the other hand, at least two Rangers have told me that they were explicitly told to stay away from the SEALs (specifically, Team 6) when deployed together.

As I understand it, the average age in Delta is significantly higher than that of the operators in SEAL Team 6 and that has something to do with it.

This is in the book the post is about.

I seem to remember that these are how the SF units are structured

Alpha is a large fire team capable of being broken down into subunits

Bravo is the next level up (platoon) and Charlie (company)

Close.

The A-team is effectively a platoon (it’s the size of a squad—well, about the size of a USMC rifle squad, a bit bigger than an Army rifle squad—and normally commanded by a Captain, which is more typical of a company, but its the organizational level below the company, which typically has ~6 of them.) A B-team is the company HQ element (so a company has one B-team as well as the A-teams.) A C-team is the battalion HQ element (an SF battalion has ~4 SF companies + 1 C-team.)

An ODA (A-Team or Alpha Team) is composed of 12 guys, designed to be broken down into 2 equal sub-units.

Usually an ODA has a senior guy and a junior guy for each job (Medic/Comms/Engineer/etc).

Here is a good, simple overview:

https://www.americanspecialops.com/special-forces/odas/

The letter designators are not Greek, but rather the radio phonetic alphabet. (Alpha and Delta happen to be present in both.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

I’ve never heard one of them use the word “delta” except in radio phonetics.

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