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> I really suggest people look into the PHEV market rather than buying pure ICE / gas.

Except his goal wasn't to buy an EV. It was to buy a Mach-E.

But then he bought an ICE vehicle instead.

> They're so backed up his current plan is to buy a new gas car to tide him over until they become available

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If your goal is to buy electric, why would you switch back to 0% electric, when you could have gotten 95% electric instead from say, Honda Clarity? (Where 95% of your energy on that car comes from electric, and 5% of your energy comes from rare multi-hour road-trips and maintenance burn-offs once a year?)

I think the bigger picture here is that electrics are just becoming "cars". They aren't buying it because its electric, but because of the specifics of the car itself (styling, performance, etc). Because of that another electric car is not a replacement because they don't care specifically that its electric.

Hmm. I guess that's a point. I try not to get attached to any brand (using cars / equipment as a commodity means shopping around for the best car no matter the brand).

But I recognize that brand-recognition is a big thing for many car buyers.

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When I look at cars, I see what they're good for and kinda group things together. Hybrids, PHEVs, Electrics, Trucks, SUVs, Minivans, etc. etc.

Once I form a category for what I want (or what I think someone else wants, if I'm talking cars with someone else), I then list off all cars that match that category until there's a style / color / set of detailed options that matches their tastes.

But the category / overall fundamental car build comes first and foremost. Function determines form, as the architects like to say.

> shopping around for the best car no matter the brand

Everyone's definition of best is different, and it is perfectly valid to differentiate by brand. E.g. you are unlikely to go too far wrong if you blindly assume Toyota == reliable.

OP made no statement about brand loyalty. It sounds like the car buyer went through the same rational process you do and decided that the Mach-E was the car that they wanted.

When faced with the inability to buy the car they wanted, they decided that they will need to buy something else with the important new parameter that they will only own this car for a short time (until they can buy a Mach-E). With that new parameter, it makes sense to buy a gas car (cheaper to get into, TCO is much less of a factor, etc).

A hybrid is an ICE vehicle, except for a PHEV (and only for a few miles).

What percentage of electric-miles vs gasoline-miles do you think a typical Chevy Volt or Honda Clarity gets?

I'm guessing 90% electric / 10% gasoline, maybe 95% / 5% split. Based off of online chatter, and various simulations I've done myself (distance I travel each day, how often I take long road trips, etc. etc.)

I argue that PHEV is closer to 90% electric (because that 50-mile all electric range covers well over 90% of your travels: especially if your office has an electric charger available like mine), and 10% gasoline (because you have to use some maintenance gasoline... + the road trips you take)

I agree, actually. My point was more that "ICE" includes all of the non-PHEV hybrids, and some people might actually include PHEV in the definition since they include an ICE drivetrain, so it's not necessarily a big step back for someone who had been considering an EV.

PHEVs don't seem to be popular but my car (Chevy Volt) has been a great gateway to a future EV. The only times I use any gas is if I do way more driving than usual in a day, or when the "engine maintence mode" kicks in once a month! It has much less maintenance than a normal gas car (2 year interval on oil changes for example), but still more than a pure EV obviously.

I don't regret missing out on an EV since the Volt was significantly cheaper at the time, but I look forward to my next car being one.

Pure EV won't work for me.

I still have hundreds+ mile trips. These trips are nominally 2 to 4 hours long, with planned breaks at specific locations that hold cultural significance to my family. (Yeah, its a bit silly, but certain stops, like a Cracker Barrel, hold significance to my nieces and they'll likely want to stop there on the next road trip. No electric chargers in sight yet, but plenty of gas stations)

Even then, changing a 4-hour trip into a 4-hour 30-minute trip for electric charging is just not going to work with kids in the car.

I mean, you never stop in trips with your kids? That sounds pretty insane to me. I've done 1000+ miles in a EV and the charging times actually make the trip better.

Oh, I stop with kids. But its where the kids like to stop.

Having the car wanting to have a 30-minute break in an area where the kids don't want a break is just going to add additional, unnecessary hassle to the trip.

Supercharger location #532 is not the Cracker Barrel where the kids want to take a break at. Realistically, someone is going to get the short-end of the stick here. And that'd be me: I'd likely have to stop at the Cracker Barrel (to make the kids feel good + get them the silly cheap toys they want to stay happy during the trip), and then I'll have to take another 30+ minute stop at the supercharger later to keep the car going.

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Have you ever traveled with kids before? When the kids are asleep: you wanna book it as far as you can go.

When the kids are awake, you need to take frequent breaks, far more frequently than your electric car demands.

If your kids are asleep, you are wasting precious "kid sleeping time" sitting around at a 30+ minute supercharger instead of making good progress. If your kids are awake, there's no damn way they'll want to wait until the next supercharger for a break.

> Supercharger location #532 is not the Cracker Barrel where the kids want to take a break at

No, it's probably somewhere interesting though. both Superchargers and ElectrifyAmerica in the US are in locations where there's interesting things to do or look at. Chargers are like every 40-50 miles or so, it's not like you have to wait an hour if you want to stop.

> Have you ever traveled with kids before?

Yes, a lot, in France, and I've never seen kids actually dictating when you stop.

Maybe it's a white American parenting thing, or an artefact of how French highways are built where you're not stopping if you just missed the rest area and they're all the same anyway?

> Maybe it's a white American parenting thing, or an artefact of how French highways are built where you're not stopping if you just missed the rest area and they're all the same anyway?

American highways have terrible rest stops. (Okay, it varies at the State level. Ohio's rest stops are actually really good for example)

For actual comfort for a decent stop, you wanna stop at a highway town / tourist trap. These are towns scattered across the US Highway system. There are chain restaurants (ex: McDonalds) if you're trying to make good time, but a nice sitdown place is often more comfortable.

Cracker Barrel is a nice chain that caters towards the highway travelers in particular. It has a children-oriented gift shop approximately the size of the restaurant. Its a good place to stop if you have kids. They stock all sorts of games and toys (simple peg-puzzles like solatare, backgammon, chess, checkers. Harmonicas / Kazoos too but don't buy those unless you wanna be annoyed while driving lol.) while also offering a good sized dining area.

Its a good place to take a break as an adult, while the kids can browse for toys that will amuse them for the rest of the drive.

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That's the thing. I make a decision to stop there for the comfort of myself and the kids. That's a very different thing than going to a supercharger station for 30+ minutes out of necessity.

If you take enough road trips along the same route, the kids remember these locations and ask to visit again. The kids aren't the only ones who want to stop at the Cracker Barrel over there, I do too.

If you need one car, the PHEV is definitely the best of both worlds. It also is not dependant on fast charging at all, so I did not need to install a level 2 charger at home or worry about my destination.

The other benefit is it is still efficient with gas, about 40-45 miles per gallon. The first generation volt required premium fuel but my second gen takes 87, so it is very cheap to operate.

I tried to buy a RAV4 prime recently and the dealership wanted me to pay $15,000 above the normal price for the privilege of buying a car in this market

Yes, as far as I can tell that's just how things are right now with all the pandemic shortages. Last month my local Subaru dealership mechanic told me they have exactly 10 cars on the lot, and that Subaru is telling them they'll start receiving new cars steadily in September (but he sounded skeptical of that claim). It's not "$15,000 more for the privilege," but rather "a lot of other people are willing to pay $15,000 more so we're not going to sell it to you for less."

Sure, I completely understand the shortages. However, very few other consumer products in America are sold like that. Sony famously could not keep up with demand for their PS5, but they didn't start selling them at $1000/piece even though they could have. Maybe it has something to do with the middle-man arrangement of dealerships, but that is really inconsequential to me as a consumer when something is labeled as an official Toyota dealership.

Particularly galling was the fact that their website advertised a RAV4 prime for $45k, and when I emailed to buy it, I was told "That one is gone. But we have an exactly similar one that we can offer to you for a $15k fee". It felt like a scummy bait and switch, and I ended up getting my Model Y for less than I would have paid for that rav4.

I think it's better that manufacturer/dealer get profit than scalpers get profit.

what is maintenance like on a PHEV vs an EV or ICE car? My intuition says it has more parts than a either and is thus more complicated

I've had my Chevy Volt for 3.5 years and driven almost 100k km (60k miles) and for service... have done one oil change. That's it. (Well, tire rotation, but that just comes along with bi-annual winter tire changeover)

Extremely reliable.

my car was also like that for the few years with five digit miles. it's after that i'm concerned about.

The more you drive electric the less maintenance. The car even tracks how many miles you put on the ICE and uses that to calculate oil changes, which in practice works out to every 2 years for me (which is also the maximum between intervals anyways).

The drivetrain on the Volt is actually quite simple and elegant when compared to a typical ICE car.

EV maintenance is actually almost funny. Here is the maintenance for most EVs:

Every 10k miles:

1. check all the filters and fluids 2. rotate tires

That's also the maintence for most ICE cars, with a few extra fluids.