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Comment by umvi | Hacker News Reader

Well what do you expect when the closest grocery store is a 10 minute drive to Safeway/Kroger/Walmart? People don't want to be driving to Safeway every single day for fresh bread and produce. They want to buy a weeks' worth of groceries at a time to save the hassle which means buying processed stuff that'll last a whole week instead of unprocessed stuff like fresh produce that only lasts a few days.

Compare to i.e. Europe where it is more common to have bakeries and such on nearly every neighborhood corner so you can walk over to buy fresh food every morning.

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I agree with you that having grocery stores nearby is helpful, but even in neighborhoods with grocery stores close by people prefer buying the unhealthy options because it's cheaper, easier, and tastier.

I think a lack of knowledge, interest, and time to plan and prepare healthy meals is the bigger issue. People don't need to go to the grocery store everyday to have fresh food at home. I only go shopping 2-3 times per month, and eat all home cooked meals with a heavy emphasis on fresh fruits and veggies.

Fresh lettuce, avocados, bananas, mushrooms, and berries last at least 1 week.

Bell peppers, tomatoes, zucchini, celery last at least 2 weeks in the fridge

Apples and carrots last 3 weeks.

Onions, garlic, sweet potatoes last 4 weeks not refrigerated.

Meat and fish: fresh can last 1 week, frozen for months.

Milk: 1 week for fresh or months if you get UHT milk.

Cheese: lasts 2-3 weeks.

Rice, beans, frozen fruits, frozen veggies: lasts months.

Eating fresh, healthy meals doesn't require a daily grocery trip. At most once a week, and with some planning every other week. I really think it's that people can't/won't handle the cognitive load of meal planning and preparation.

> I really think it's that people can't/won't handle the cognitive load of meal planning and preparation.

Yes, that is a big factor too. Buying healthier raw ingredients is more (mentally) difficult than buying pre-made processed stuff like hot pockets because of the preparation and planning required.

I inherited a slow cooker after uni as a bachelor and still use it at least twice a week with my family of five. Easy, nutrious, delicious and obsolete-proof: pick all four!

What slow cooker recipes do you make most often? I need some ideas

> They want to buy a weeks' worth of groceries at a time to save the hassle which means buying processed stuff that'll last a whole week instead of unprocessed stuff like fresh produce that only lasts a few days.

This isn't true, though. Most fruits, meats, and vegetables don't spoil in only a few days. Modern flash freezing technology also makes frozen vegetables very nutritious and flavorful.

I shop once per week and my grocery list is mostly fresh vegetables, fruits, and meats. It really doesn't take much effort. If I do pick something up that spoils quickly, I simply cook it in a meal at the beginning of the week instead of toward the end.

I wish it was more common knowledge that eating healthy isn't near as difficult or expensive as it sounds.

> Most fruits, meats, and vegetables don't spoil in only a few days. Modern flash freezing technology also makes frozen vegetables very nutritious and flavorful.

But flash freezing is an industrial technology not found in your standard home kitchen. Does that not qualify that food for the processed or ultra-processed categories?

This is why these labels are silly. There are a ton of edge cases that get missed.

> This is why these labels are silly. There are a ton of edge cases that get missed.

Do you have evidence that they considered frozen vegetables to be ultra-processed? Or are you just assuming they did? The study clearly shows that the ultra-processed foods were nutritionally worse, so I doubt they were referring to frozen vegetables. Let's give them some credit, shall we?

The label isn't meant to be a guidebook for consumers. It's meant to be a classification system used for the purposes of this study.

The researches didn't just blindly categorize things as ultra-processed and forget to check the validity of their classification. They show that the ultra-processed category of foods used in this study were, indeed, nutritionally worse.

I'm not sure why everyone is so hung up on assumed failures of this classification system. Even the linked article has quotes from the researchers that explain the nutritional aspects of the study. They weren't just blindly demonizing food processing.

> Do you have evidence that they considered frozen vegetables to be ultra-processed? Or are you just assuming they did?

Last time this discussion came up, I told people to just read the actual study [1]. This link has it behind a paywall, but I am pretty sure it's the same one.

Their section on "processed" describes some of the criteria as:

> These include canned or bottled vegetables or legumes (pulses) preserved in brine; whole fruit preserved in syrup; tinned fish preserved in oil; some types of processed animal foods such as ham, bacon, pastrami, and smoked fish; most freshly baked breads; and simple cheeses to which salt is added. See Table 1, below. They are made by adding salt, oil, sugar or other substances from group 2 to group 1 foods.

That reads to me as qualifying frozen vegetables as "processed" foods.

> I'm not sure why everyone is so hung up on assumed failures of this classification system. Even the linked article has quotes from the researchers that explain the nutritional aspects of the study. They weren't just blindly demonizing food processing.

Likely because the headline and classification system cause people to come up with their own, not-quite-the-same idea of what "processed" and "ultra-processed" are. It reinforces the idea that "natural === good" which is not necessarily the case.

Personally, I would rather see some attempt at quantifying thresholds for these ingredients. Yes, everyone should eat more fresh fruits and vegetables. We all know that, and yet we don't. Convenience is powerful. Can I lobby my congressman to ban a particular type of preservative which is strongly linked to cancer? Can I be hyper-vigilant for it in foods that I purchase? Maybe there are multiple such ingredients. Are they acceptable at different thresholds or worse when combined?

I want something actionable, not a shock headline.

[1]: http://www.fao.org/3/ca5644en/ca5644en.pdf

I shop once a week and eat extremely healthy. I’ve done this for as long as I can remember even while at college. I don’t think it requires shops on every corner.

To be fair, some produce like bananas and cucumbers can go bad in less than a week. But it’s easy to avoid and if you want them fresh, picking up a handful of items mid week isn’t too much of a chore.

I shop once a week too, but most of what I get would count as ultra-processed here.

+ Dave's killer wholegrain english muffins

+ Bacon

+ Icelandic yogurt

And several other items count as processed:

+ Pickles

+ Lunch meat

+ Deli cheese

There are also things which sit in a weird spot that isn't clear to me, eg frozen hash browns. This is literally just potatoes and salt but has had mechanical processes and extrusion.

Unless you are eating a raw diet, a lot of your items count as ultra processed under these guidelines.

Freezers - they are underrated and looked down upon. But the sourdough bread I toasted the other day from the freezer tasted great. Infact I often prefer the frozen then cooked variety of food and its cheaper. E.g. frozen salmon.

During a COVID lockdown, a once a week shop is ideal because of minimizing contact with other people. Also once a week could be delivered rather than shopped for.

You need to chill. Literally :-)

Right. I’ve been learning about “food deserts” and one of the factors that makes a place a food desert is how the residents transport themselves. Basically if a lot of the residents have to take the bus to get anywhere then even a short drive by car can be a very long trip for many people actually living in a given area.

Interesting that the trends are pretty much the same at poverty level and 3x poverty level income groups. If it were only a matter of having a decent built environment where you walk past a green grocer on your way home, I'd think there would be a difference between rich and poor.

Part of this is just being able to buy things in small enough quantities. I can buy fresh bread every day nearby but I cannot possibly consume it all by myself before it goes bad. Sliced bread tossed into the fridge lasts long enough for me to actually eat it.

The difference is your typical composition/density and limited storage space. I live ~15min walk from an inner city Safeway and the prices are much higher than the box store or Costco where we do a weekly shop. Fresh veggies and fruit last at least a week, but because they're trimmed & packaged probably count as "ultra processed".

Many fresh vegetables will last at least 5 days in the fridge if you put them in tupperware.

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