Hacker News Reader

Comment by duxup | Hacker News Reader

I'm kinda amazed.

I mentioned I was thinking of moving from an Android phone to Apple soon, somewhat privacy related.

My friends lectured me on "they're scanning your photos" ... meanwhile they share their google photos albums with me and marvel about how easy they are to search ...

Maybe we (humans) only get outraged based on more specific narratives and not so much the general topics / issues?

I don't know but they didn't seem to notice the conflict.

View on HN

Isn't there a small difference between these? A) They scan everything I have released to google photos B) They scan everything that exists on my device

Psychologically, you'll feel a difference in what you accept between the two, I think

> B) They scan everything that exists on my device

No ... They scan everything that I have released to apple photos that exists on my device.

Same scan - different place.

The issue is that as soon as you set that precedent, it’s only a matter of time before it extends beyond iCloud. That’s the problem with doing any device-level scanning. This is dystopian and scary. And yes I understand the technology in its current iteration. The current form has problems (weaponizing collisions etc) but the real issue comes with future developments.

Was scanning server side not a precedent?

It was but it was one we were not in a position to resist at the time. Surrendered to almighty convenience.

But here appears to be beyond the pale such that people are saying "this far, no farther!"

It set the precedent for scanning server side. Which I don’t like but there’s really no way to avoid it anyway.

Now we have clientside scanning, and actually being led by the [note the scare quotes] “pro-privacy” two ton gorilla. It’s a whole different ballgame.

Furthermore, was uploading (backing up) the entire contents of your phone to a server to be freely scaned and distributed (with warrant of course) server side not also a precedent?

Must have been absloutely nuts round here back in 2011 when they announced the particular slippery slope that is iCloud backup.

> They scan everything that exists on my device

I get to select the issue and it was in response to the previous claim that 'they' are scanning everything that exists on the device right now.

A year ago this was a possible 'future development'. 10 years from now I could be living on Mars. This is all hypothetical.

> This is all hypothetical.

Exactly. However, people don't seem to have an issue when hypothesizing that CSAM detection is good actually, because Apple might implement E2EE, despite no evidence of such intentions.

For some reason, though, people take issue when others hypothesize that CSAM detection is bad actually, because Apple might expand it further and violate users' privacy even more. And there's actually precedent for this hypothesis, given Apple's actions here and their own words[1]:

> This program is ambitious, and protecting children is an important responsibility. These efforts will evolve and expand over time.

[1] https://www.apple.com/child-safety/

Isn't the default on Android these days that all images get uploaded ("backed up") to Photos? And how many users are actually altering defaults?

As has been repeated over and over, apple only scans photos that are part if icloud photos (ie, uploaded).

Don't want your photo's scanned, don't sync them to icloud. Seriously! Please include the actual system when discussing this system, not your bogeyman system.

"To help address this, new technology in iOS and iPadOS* will allow Apple to detect known CSAM images stored in iCloud Photos."

To increase privacy - they perform the scan on device prior to upload.

As has been repeated over and over, apple only scans photos that are part if icloud photos (ie, uploaded).

"for now"

Which is the part most people have a problem with -- they say that they are only scanning iCloud uploads now, but it's simple extension of the scanner to scan all files.

I don't care if Apple scans my iCloud uploads on iCloud servers, I don't want them scanning photos on my device.

I will believe them if they put their money where their mouth is: as a clause to iOS user agreement saying that if they ever use they ever use this functionality for anything other than CSAM or on anything other than iCloud photos, ever person who was subjected to this scan will be paid 100 million dollars by Apple. I will believe them if they put this clause in, and I know when they have changed their plans when they remove the clause. No more pinky swears, let's add some stakes for breaking the promise.

I'd be satisfied with a money back guarantee -- if they change the policy then I can return the phone for a full refund.

Until one day a box pops up. It says "We've updated our terms. See this 10,000 line document here. Please accept to continue using your device." Then your clause is gone.

I'm fine with that. Apple is a big company and changing its TOS will be instantly reported on. It will act as a canary of sorts to know when they turn evil and we know to stop using their products.

Isn't the design of this system enough of a canary?

People are pretending it scans everything on your device. This conversation is already bad enough without adding additional confusion over what this does.

I don't have a problem if it scans everything, but its not. Let's stick to what is doing. Android could do this as well, so talking about what companies like google could do is not so interesting - they could do almost anything.

Google does everything they can to backup your photos ... and do it automatically.

I'm not sure there's a real difference unless you want to watch your settings all the time. In google land they tend to reset ... and really that happens a lot of places.

I think for most people if you use google, you're in their cloud.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com