Ploopy: open hardware trackballs and mouse
ploopy.co
ploopy.co
- It comes in a kit and as you need to assemble it, you feel emotionally attached to it
- The designer (Colin) probably has big hands. I have a small hand and it doesn't fit right.
- The 3d printed texture is great.
- The ball doesn't 'flow'. It doesn't keep momentum. You apply a strong movement and it spins dead within the second.
- I absolutely love it is open source, but there is not much of a community around it, probably because the barriers of entry are quite high. I never found the time to hack it myself.
- It tracks the movement extremely well. Accuracy, precision are awesome. Better than any other trackball I have (and I have MANY). On par with the logitech mx master.
- The position of the thumb wheel is not good for my hand. After months of use it started giving me RSI. And now everytime I use it, I notice within the hour that something is not right.
My perfect trackball would be the ploopy:
- With a smaller body for small hands
- With momentum in the scroll wheel ALA logitech mice
- With a different position for the scroll wheel
That's actually a nice idea. It would be great to have three sizes, like S, M and L.
For this issue, some people have modified their Ploopy trackballs with great success using Ball Transfer Units. Here's a long blog post about it: https://www.gbryant.co.uk/posts/2021-02-15_ploopy-trackball/...
An example video of BTUs functioning in a Kingston trackball: https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/comments/ddlovq/ladies_a...
May I ask why do you prefer trackballs over say a trackpad? I too like trackballs due to tangible feeling of it but I use a wacom tablet as trackpad for accessibility reasons.
The open nature of Ploopy might be well suited for those with accessibility needs like me but as you say the barrier for entry is high(but so are any other accessibility hardware; unfortunately).
Secondarily, with a trackball it's easier to cover a large area "ballistically" i.e. with a mouse or trackpad you might have to do multiple side-to-side traversals in order to go across your screens (or set a very high DPI which also gets tiring after a while)
Do you have suggestions for a decent thumb based trackball?
The “Plus” version is the same as the normal “MX Ergo” but with an optional angled support provided (and only available in the US, I imported mines from Ebay).
The dimensions[1][2] when compared to standard mouse(e.g. M275)[3] seems to be about an inch higher(height, width), Also the GP comment says Ploopy was a bit large to use; Are the thumb trackball mouse inherently larger?
[1] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...
[2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/m575-ergo-wirel...
[3] https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360023307234-Logi...
When I think of open hardware I imagine Kicad/Altium files of the electronics (not gerbers), access to the C, C++ or Rust firmware and the STEP files at least or other source modifiable files so they're 3D printable if I was so inclined to modify all three.
[1] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-trackball/tree/master/ha...
The only thing why I'm probably not going for it is that 1) shipment would be way too much to justify and 2) the STLs seem to be 3d printed instead of injection molded or similar, so the "no cheap shit" argument on their website is kinda different for me if I have to print all files myself anyways.
[1] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-trackball/tree/master/ha...
[1] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/pl...
> CAD files are not available for the mouse... [Will it ever be?] It's certainly possible, but my focus is not currently on the mouse, so there's no timeline. [0]
> I haven't released the design files for the Mouse, no. I may revisit that decision at a later date, since I've slated some major design revisions to it, but that won't be any time soon. Sorry. [1]
> I made the decision some time ago to keep the mechanical files for the Mouse closed-source. I could spend all day trying to convince you that my reasoning was good, but you'd still leave unsatisfied. All I can do is tell you that I'm sorry the files aren't available, and that I hope you can find something that will satisfy your needs. [2]
The Open Source Hardware Association describes OSHW as "hardware whose design is made publicly available so that anyone can study, modify, distribute, make, and sell the design or hardware based on that design. The hardware’s source, the design from which it is made, is available in the preferred format for making modifications to it." Kicad/Altium would certainly be appropriate for the electronics.
Gerbers are to Kicad schematics and PCBs as the STEPs and STLs are to the mechanical design files in Freecad .FCStd or (more likely) Autodesk dwg/f3d/iam or Solidworks SLDPRT/SLDASM formats. For the other products like the trackballs, the author did not release the mechanical design files, only the output STEPs and STLs. This isn't quite as bad as, for example, getting only the compiled code out of a software project. Mechanical design tools are good at working with STEP files; each step of hardware->electronics->software gets increasingly more obfuscated. But I agree, it's hard to put "Open" as the first word on your website and then describe your products as:
> Our products are accessible. Often, we release some or even all of the design files and source code for our products.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/ploopy/comments/k4olxc/cad_availabl...
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ploopy/comments/l3r783/ploopy_mouse...
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/ploopy/comments/mkzmv7/stl_for_ploo...
I mean, when a name manages to combine "plop" and "poopy" in a way that makes it really hard to think of anything but the toilet... it just makes me wonder why they chose that association?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plopp
[2] https://www.bizapedia.com/canada/ploopy-corporation.html
Obviously studied at the GIMP school of naming.
This looks like nothing more than poor taste.
Anyway, having had trouble with pain in my wrist and mouse-work induced fatigue in my fingers I have to say that switching to trackballs has definitely improved this a lot. I also tried some vertical mice but overall I like the ergonomics of a trackball much more. A big benefit is that you can even use it when sitting on the sofa or the bed with the laptop (I know, bad habit), which is just impossible with a normal mouse. Also, I can't count the times I swept my vertical mouse off the table when reaching for it (as the height of the mouse still seems unexpectedly high to my brain), which just never happens with trackballs, obviously. I even enjoy playing shooters and games with a trackball, for my amateurish skill level the precision is good enough.
I didn't like any of the current ones on the market and, by that time, there were trackpads on the market, at least the ones for Macs, that I actively liked rather than barely, if that, tolerated.
Also yes the sofa usage is awesome. Didn’t even think about this being an advantage, but I do it all the time
It looks like Ploopy's Classic Trackball comes fairly close to the form factor. Very tempted :-)
It feels perfectly right in my hand, the 3d printed texture is fantastic and the qmk firmware allows a level of customization you will never see on more consumer-oriented products.
Some drawbacks I can think of are the mouse wheel placement and feeling, the USB type B connector and the included ball that is not perfectly round (there is some sort of tiny nub on top of it that can interfere with the bearings).
Two big advantages with the L-Trac, first it has very different ergonomics from a mouse, unlike most other trackballs on the market. (I still use mice for gaming, but too much mousing will give me an RSI in my wrist.) The CST trackballs really promote a fully open hand posture, and for me at least the pinching with my thumb is what gives me problems with mice. The other is the roller bearing that make the ball much smoother to operate than anything I've compared it against.
[1]https://ol.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/comments/egcf41/clearly_s...
I never knew the history, just loved the product.
I guess if I open it up I can mod it with a pool ball though
Ploopy: An Open-Source Trackball - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21263264 - Oct 2019 (84 comments)
Most people, including me have switched out the factory ruby bearings for ZrO2 bearings. It's a simple disassembly and reassembly, a bit more advanced than install ram. It's not a huge difference but is definitely noticeable. I am planning on replacing the microswitches at some point as well, it's relatively straightforward to disassemble and all you'd need is a soldering iron.
For me the experience has been really smooth and even though it's not open source, it's well supported and easy to mod. I looked at the ploopy but honestly felt the Elecom Deft Pro was a better value for my money. I also appreciate more buttons and an actual plastic shell and not a 3d printed product. I personally like Xbindkeys for when I use it on Arch. I found X-mouse button control let me map a button to switch the trackball into a giant scroll wheel which is really useful. You can remap buttons to copy, paste, and other gestures.
Amazon US link (non-affiliate): https://www.amazon.com/Trackball-M-DPT1MRXBK-Bluetooth-High-...
Disassembly pics: https://imgur.com/a/XzUOey1
Is there a technique, or is this something Trackballs (or this particular trackball) aren't good at?
no problem like that here -- trackball user for life.
I'm left handed, my pinky and ring finger sit on the LMB and my thumb sits on RMB/mouse-wheel, on a kensington. No special technique as far as I am aware.
This said, I've never found my Slimblade comfortable and have accepted that my Magic trackpad is the most ergonomic device for me. Every time I use a trackball I get hand fatigue due to palm shape and hard buttons. Precision movements are also hard on big and hi-res monitors. I am always re-adjusting the cursor position.
and it's QMK firmware, which means I can have it send keystrokes not just mouse buttons.
Oh Frabjous day!
Due to the new QMK firmware, the Ploopy cannot be used simultaneously with some very expensive KVMs and KMs. That's because they are all built on the assumption that they are connected to one keyboard and one mouse.
I have tons of great QMK keyboards and I can't use them with the Ploopy on these switches because of this.
I don't miss the BONG!s, either.
IE, the Ploopy mouse costs $130, but a generic wired mouse costs $13.
I'm tempted to buy a Ploopy mouse because it has dedicated copy & paste buttons... (I don't think I'd ever hack it.) But then again, it has a cord! I personally was a holdout and kept using a wired mouse long after everyone cut their cord, but I don't want to go back to a wire. (And I don't want to hack the mouse to be cordless.)
Sometimes there's just no replacing a direct connection.
All that said, I agree on the price on these. I'd love to have an open-firmware mouse, but $130 is too steep for a productivity mouse and there's not enough buttons for a gaming mouse (I like using the MMO-style ones which basically have a 10-key pad under your thumb).
That was what kept me away from cordless mice for decades. Now I seem to get about a year on a set of batteries.
Do you use your mouse for gaming? Image manipulation? I don't have accuracy issues, but sometimes I notice a very slight lag if I haven't touched the mouse in a few minutes. Personally I'm willing to put up with that compared to the cord getting in the way.
Yes, often, and yes, sometimes. The "wake up" thing is a problem I remember having from one of the wireless rodents I had in the past and it was definitely frequent enough to turn me off. Granted, improvements in this and in battery life have surely occurred over the years, but I've never had a problem with a cord getting in the way (are you pointing your mouse backwards sometimes?), so that's not something I need solved. I'll just stick with wired mice for now and the foreseeable future.
(!cache bang on DDG with the URL will get you there quickly)
Only if you choose to exclude social factors from your shopping decisions.
I get it, lots of people do. That's why we have WalMart and Amazon.com and Target filled with cheap Chinese junk while the small business down the street can't get shelf space.
But if you're someone who values what the company is doing, that 12 years may be closer to five or six years. And if the quality is better than Logitech, it may last that whole time, instead of requiring replacement every 2 years.
(I don't use trackballs or mouses, so I have no skin in this game.)
I struggled a bit with accuracy at first, but now I’ve lowered the DPI to around 500 and it’s become much more usable for me since.
If a trackball could be magnetically suspended so it floats without touching anything and still transmit its movements, that would be perfect. You'd only have to clean the ball itself once in a while, and that would be easy enough.
Edit: Could also probably be something that's alternating bright and dark in IR so the ball doesn't look weird.
Once in a while a hair or some dust gets stuck in front oft the sensor. Then you need to clean it. But this happens maybe twice a year for me.
This was my experience in the 90s, but my kensington expert uses lasers for tracking position and this is a non-issue.
However, I think I should clean my ErgoDox and mouse soon... thanks for the inspiration.
The only thing I'd change is giving it a full body click, so that the entire case/ball functions as a button when pushed down.
I don't understand a ton about hardware, so there may be an obvious answer to this question. I just remember looking for a decent PS/2 mouse with more than 2-3 buttons after reading too much about USB vulnerabilities and found the market completely lacking.
I've assumed there's a technological limitation, but seem to remember owning a such a mouse in the mid 2000's.
Such a PS/2 mouse would be very exciting to me.
I love everything about the Ploopy except for the firmware - QMK makes things complicated for my expensive KVMs/KMs. A dedicated mouse protocol would be ideal. QMK doesn't provide that, but PS/2 could.
WRT PS/2, demand is too low and I don't realistically have the knowledge, time, and resources to make one.
And no USB vulnerabilities are going to make it through the adapter, correct?
The big one however has these mods in the community so that's awesome.
Keyboardio liked to talk about this when they were building their first models.
[0] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-trackball/tree/master/ha...
I'm now curious if it makes sense to build replacement pcbs for off the shelf models. I certainly have a very old trackball that I used during the mac quadra era that is fucking fantastic except for the fact that it's ADB. If I could swap out the pcb and make it compatible with qmk and usb that would be fantastic. I do know that there is a small ADB to USB converter out there for keyboards that even let you do keystroke remapping, however I'm unsure of how it deals with mouse-things.
But back to your main point. I think 3d printing makes sense in this space at least for the forseeable future. In the event that they make a 'hit' input device, once the design is refined a modest injection molded run of the case seems like a grand idea.
For other plastics, you can give them a coat of epoxy.
What's the benefit of have open firmware for this?